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@rysiek @muiren A simple Google search on #Zambia 🇿🇲 by J.K. Rowling would have easily dispelled such accusations. Zambia 🇿🇲 imprisons #LGBT people, so they obviously would not allow a Transgender player to represent them on the football ⚽️ field.

Some people are “too smart” for their own good.

@darnell @muiren it was exactly the same with Imane Khelif. She is Algerian, represented Algeria, and Algeria also is LGBT-hostile.

@rysiek
You are very misinformed on the nature of this controversy. It has nothing to do with being transgender. Please educate yourself before making harsh judgements.

@rcz not sure why you removed @darnell and @muiren from your reply.

But please, do educate me about this controversy? What is it *really* about, in your view?

@rysiek

I try to engage in a respectful discussion of a complex subject, so I will choose to take your request at face value, ignoring the obvious, while unwarranted, sarcastic undertone.

The controversy is about DSDs.
Particularly, about 5-alpha-reductase defficiency — a condition affecting male sex development in a way which leads to new-born boys being mistaken for girls, because of undeveloped extenal genitalia.

There is no suggestion of anyone being transgender in any of these cases, so the whole discussion of countries being LGBT-hostile is entirely irrelevant.

@darnell @muiren

@rcz regarding the tone, I think that's only fair, I did the same with your patronizing tone after all.

Before we jump in, I asked the other two people mentioned earlier if they want to continue being mentioned, I'll re-add them if they confirm. Should have asked first, to be fair.

@rcz and let's do one more thing and remove the specific person from this, as there are going to be a lot of uncomfortable hypotheticals in this thread, I'm sure.

So let' say there is a person called Amal. She has been assigned female at birth, and since then has participated in sports all her life, with considerable success.

When she's twentysomething, suddenly there's a test showing the result you mention.

What gender is she, in your opinion?

@rysiek
There are multiple conflicting definitions of “gender” — I take it here to be a synonym for “sex”, but you're free to specify a different meaning.

If the test shows Amal is a XY person with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, that would mean Amal is male.

@rcz right. You added the chromosome thing, we'll get back to that.

So a person assigned female at birth, participating in sports for years upon years (meaning being close quarters in changing rooms with other women), is in your opinion now considered male.

Should Amal be allowed to participate in sports as a woman?

Should Amal be allowed to participate in sports as a man?

And, how come nobody noticed until now?

/re-adding @darnell after confirming he's okay with that

@rysiek @darnell

I've only added the chromosome thing for clearer context, as, as I said, 5-alpha-reductase deficiency only affects males anyway. But sure, we can get back to that if something isn't clear here.

No, in my opinion Amal should not be allowed to participate in sports as a woman.

Yes, Amal should definitely be allowed to participate in sports as a man.

I don't understand the last question. What has nobody notices until now? Amal has definitely noticed “something is off”. After being mistakenly assigned female at birth, Amal might have not noticed anything until puberty. But then, when menstruation doesn't start, and instead external male genitalia do belatedly appear, Amal definitely noticed that — understandably very embarrassing and confusing — development.

@rcz I also assume Amal should in your opinion start using the mens' room now, as well, right?

Edit: sorry, mistakenly wrote "ladies'" room.

@darnell

@rysiek @darnell

Really, you've decided to pivot to The Bathroom Issue instead of actually engaging with the actual issue we're discussing?

Do you accept that your understanding of this controversy as of two hours ago was wrong on the level of facts, and that you've now learned important additional facts changing this understanding?

Did this realization push you to actually make an effort to reevaluate your opinion?

@rcz but if Amal must switch from participating in female sports to participating in male sports, then it follows Amal must switch from using the ladies' room to using the mens' room?

Is it not the case?

Amal was assigned female at birth, went through her life as a woman, and then at twenty something is informed that she "is a male".

Apart from being "embarrassing and confusing" as you put it, it's a huge practical and personal safety problem for Amal in LBGT-hostile places.

@darnell

@rysiek @darnell

Does it follow? Maybe. It's just a different discussion. We can have that discussion at some point also, bathrooms do have practical and safety-related issues and it's a whole topic. But why do you want to pivot from the topic we're actually discussing?

You asked me a series of questions on this sports issue, but what do you think?

We now know, and Amal knows, that Amal enjoys full sports-related benefit of male development, because this condition doesn't affect it. Amal still wants to take part in a women's kick-boxing competition.

Do you think it's fine?

@rcz @darnell I think it's fine, yes. I think Amal lived her whole life as a woman, and if she considers herself a woman, she is a woman.

I think somehow the "sports-related benefits" are only considered problematic in sports when it just so happens that a discussion of biological sex is involved.

Nobody is banning Phelps from competing with people who do not happen to benefit from similar physical quirks, for example.

@rcz @darnell I also know there are men with XX chromosomes, and I have not seen so far anyone suggesting that if that happens to be a man participating in competitive sports, he should participate in female disciplines only.

All of this, frankly, heavily reminds me of all the "scientific" ways people had used in the past, and sometimes still use, to defend racism and homophobia.

Do you think men that happen to have XX chromosomes should participate in female disciplines?

@rysiek @darnell

No, men with XX chromosomes who benefit from male development should not participate in female disciplines. Why should they?

And frankly, the unjustified associations you present here are stupid and insulting.

@rcz @darnell ok, so:

1. In case of our Amal, XY chromosomes in your opinion define a male person, and regardless of what's on her birth certificate and how she had lived her life till that point in time, she should be considered a "male", and only allowed to participate in male sports disciplines, right?

2. But male-presenting people who identify as men but happen to have XX chromosomes should still be allowed to participate in male sports disciplines, correct?

@rysiek @darnell
No, at no point did I say XY chromosomes “define a male person”.

Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@rcz @darnell well, you did bring chromosomes into this before, and I said we will come back to them.

In your opinion, is there a medical test that can be performed to clearly and unambiguously establish whether any given person is "male" or "female"?

In your opinion, do men with XX chromosomes should be considered "female"? Why/why not?

@rysiek @darnell
I did bring chromosomes into the hypothetical scenario for clearer context, yes. I did not say chromosomes define sex. They don't.

BTW, I do also think there is a valid case for some XY people to be included in female sport category. 5-ARD is just not one of these cases.

I don't think there is a singular test to clearly and unambiguously establish sex. Chromosome testing is a fairly good screen, but there can be more diagnostics needed in some rare cases (diagnostics which provide information which those people need anyway for health reasons).

Men with XX chromosomes should not be considered female, because they don't follow female development path.

@rcz @darnell in your opinion, is there a set of tests that can be performed to clearly and unambiguously establish whether any given person is "male" or "female"?

@rysiek @darnell

For a given definition of sex, yes.

Specifically, for a definition of sex relevant in sport, yes.