@nf3xn @fifilamoura @rysiek He's awfully comfortable launching a coup from USA soil.
@jebba wait, so you're saying current US administration is somehow supporting a coup in Brazil that aims to reinstate the guy who was closely aligned with the previous US administration, which in turn tried to perpetrate a coup against the current US administration?
Am I getting this right?..
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura I don't think they are trying to re-instate Bolsonaro. I do think they keep South America destabilized on purpose.
Doesn't Bolsonaro sitting in Florida speaks volumes though? Why does he feel he can be there, if not impunity? And why does he have that impunity here?
@jebba who is the "they" who are trying to destabilize South America in your opinion, exactly?
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura People in the US government (including Florida governor, etc, I should add), in particular "security" services, CIA, embassies, etc.
By the way, I never suggested (earlier, nor now), that this is Biden's agenda.
@jebba whose agenda is this, then?
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura The same people that have been overthrowing governments in South America for years. Various oligarchs working with security services, is what it often turns out to be.
@jebba how is this, then, related to Monroe Doctrine that you linked to?
Monroe Doctrine was a US *foreign policy doctrine*, after all. So you linking to it did suggest you meant, well, US government policy.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura It is the *de facto* policy of the USA. The USA dominates South America. Any exception will have the screws turned on them until they give in. This all long pre-dates Biden. Even if today he wanted to stop it, it will take a generation to shut down.
@jebba wait, so is this this official USA policy (in other words, US *government* policy), or is this some oligarchs doing stuff.
How can something be "policy of the USA" but not be official policy of the government/administration?
The Monroe Doctrine, in sum, is USA domination of South America.
This also is the truth on the ground. Any country that doesn't subject to the USA is constantly harassed (e.g. Cuba, Venezuela at present).
So whether the Monroe Doctrine is on state.gov or not, is immaterial. In reality, it is how the foreign policy works.
As for the oligarchs, they control the politicans. Then the government goes and carries out *their* will, not the will of the public.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura All of this goes on for generations, regardless of party.
@jebba I am no fan of US foreign policy, but I am also no fan of nebulous conspiracy theories that stipulate some shady "thems" and suggest that actual foreign policy of a country is not controlled nor controllable by the current administration/government ruling it.
The reason I am no fan of such conspiracy theories is because they are useless: no explanatory value and no predictive value. It's just an "I want to believe" that intellectually and practically leads nowhere.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura I get that. I've just lived in South America, have known politicians and ambassadors, so this is my take on it.
When I lived in Argentina, no less than *Enron* controlled infrastructure like the water supply. Enron was Bush's largest political donor. They go in and squeeze SA countries to privatize, or they overthrow them.
As for who are the people doing this today in Brazil? I don't know. Time reveals a lot. Undoubtably there is a billionaire or two in there!
@jebba basically, if this is something that "goes on for generations, regardless of party" (even though those parties seem to disagree on even the most basic things) and apparently not even the current administration can do anything about — then there seems no way to do anything about it.
I don't believe in such all-encompassing magical processes.
Show me who is *actually* behind this and we can talk. Otherwise, I am filing this right next to chemtrails.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura Ok, I can give you an example that is well documented, which is Iran Contra.
I was trying to find a paper by Cambridge scholars, which in an empirical study showed that the public's influence on political matters in the USA, *is indistinguishable from noise*. It isn't the public wanting war.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura Also, I don't agree with this: "those parties seem to disagree on even the most basic things".
They agree on USA imperialism!
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura As for "then there seems no way to do anything about it. ... I don't believe in such all-encompassing magical processes."
I'm not saying it's a magical process. It has more to do with dollars!
And it's not that *nothing* can be done about it, but we're talking about rolling back the imperial state, which isn't done with a memo, it will take a generation+.
@jebba sure, but to start that process we need to be more specific than "USA wants to destabilize South America."
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura Ya, sure, I think rolling it back will require more than that.
I'd also again highly suggest the Ambassador doc linked, it shows the very face of destablization.
We can also start with policy.
ENDING THE DRUG WAR would be the single best policy to start improving lives in South America.
@jebba oh sure, and there's a bunch that has happened on that front on different levels of government in the USA over the last, say, 5 years. For example, legalization of certain substances in many places.
FOR WHICH I WAS THE LARGEST SINGLE DONOR IN THE STATE OF COLORADO, THE FIRST STATE TO LEGALIZE.
Is my caps on?
I also registered medicalmarijuana .com in the 1990s and my company made the first campaign site for it. :)
@jebba great, then you understand perfectly why it's important to be a bit more specific than vague proclamations of "X tells you who is supporting this..."
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura I'll happily go into details. ;)
But it does speak volumes that he's perfectly comfortable here!!
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura Ok, here's a current example with Venezuela.
"Venezuela’s Juan Guaidó, Who Led Failed Coup Efforts, Speaks at White House Democracy Summit"
"On Thursday, President Joe Biden welcomed Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó to the democracy summit — rather than Venezuela’s democratically elected president, Nicolás Maduro."
etc.
@rysiek @nf3xn @fifilamoura This documentary is awesome, as it catches some of this type of wheeling & dealing with a hidden camera.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassador_%282011_film%29