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(this is not a criticism of the person who made the table)

@kissane it’s still a little wild to me that “unlisted” still shows up in everyone’s home timelines

Erin Kissane

@beep every time I gripe about mastodon all these people show up and they're like LIAR ITS EASY IF UR NOT DUM and I never say "explain unlisted to me then without googling"

but I want to every time

@kissane @beep in my experience the folks who are ok with this are often the same folks who think that a small team of "focused" engineers with no design or product can "really get things done"

"Things" doing a lot of work in that sentence

@eshamow There's a lot of reasons why designers aren't engaged in OSS projects (Masto); money and a lack of available funding to folks wanting to participate, as well as the lifetime-earnings-potential difference (which is extreme) between engineers and designers.

I suspect designers were never intentionally eschewed, rather just not "invited;' because we're just not present in OSS spaces. For the above reasons.
@kissane @beep

@ninavizz Yeah I suspect you were right about not being intentionally eschewed, but I also think it says a lot about how engineering thinks about making inclusive spaces, and how much respect we tend to have for other disciplines too

I wish we started projects from the perspective of "here is what we would need to include design," rather than starting from the same place every time and then saying "huh where are all the designers?" @kissane @beep

@eshamow LOL, totally... but humans are weird and unpredictable. Yes, y'all are engineers, but you're humans, first—which is both my job security, and why nobody thinks to involve us off the bat.

I wish we had a stronger presence in OSS. If we did, I feel that'd solve for a lot of things. It's intuitive, it seems, for devs to engage others they know to bring value to projects, from within the OSS community. Those folks just need the time to volunteer—and designers never do. @kissane @beep

@eshamow @ninavizz @kissane @beep I'd love to see some insightful folks start banding together to invert this process.

Nobody needs permission to sketch out a better, more coherent design for this. Please go ahead + flesh out what the privilege + distribution models should be, based on those insights about human behavior. Evangelize your answers.

Given a good spec, it's much easier to find engineers to code + deploy it.

@pevohr @eshamow @kissane @beep Permission? No. Designers just need to get paid. When we are paid by corporations, non-profits, startups, and agencies, we always make much less than engineers; sometimes less than 1/2 as much. Which leaves us less time to volunteer, and our rare volunteer opportunities precious. That needs to change, as do other pay inequities, for everyone to be as capable of contributing to OSS as engineers.

@ninavizz @eshamow @kissane @beep Yep. During the early phases of any OSS project, nobody's getting paid. Engineers already outnumber designers, + given the economic imbalances you mention, that skews the pool of potential volunteers even more.

Hence the reality that early design decisions are often made by folks doing the best they can with the resources they have available.

@pevohr @eshamow @kissane @beep America's economy has forced a social prioritization of "me" over "we," for too many of us. I hate it, but that's also a big part of the problem. Nobody's hustling to get a BMW; but we do have to hustle to get the basics covered, like food, shelter, and healthcare. Even then, the insecurity of all of those adds stress to our lives that cishet men, engineers, ppl w/o kids, etc., experience less often.

@ninavizz @eshamow @kissane @beep Exactly. It's a sad reality that for too many in the American economy, volunteering -- even on a prominent, clearly valuable project -- is a luxury that many with the relevant skills can't afford.

But it's a big world, + all we need is for a few folks at the right stages of their careers (semi-retired after succeeding in industry, or much earlier while living on a student budget) to step up.

@pevohr I wish we'd focus on fixing the compensation disparity, rather than relying on a few folks who made it to be benevolent

I mean both can happen, I'm just tired of a mode of thinking inside tech orgs that is reinforced in the way they compensate talent @ninavizz @kissane @beep

@eshamow Thank you. In perimenopause, my patience w/ cishet White male optimism that benevolence in Capitalism is a viable or healthy path to encourage, has dwindled to a negative. We spend trillions on war. We unhouse people incapable of caring for themselves. In SF people whine about how poop on the sidewalk inconveniences their property value; ignoring how it degrades the pooper. We can and must do better. @pevohr @kissane @beep

@pevohr @eshamow @kissane @beep Pretty hard disagree on that. Those attitudes promote exclusion, and inclusion is what's needed. There's also a LOT more volunteering needed in the world, apart from software projects; but when software is built by volunteers, rarely are the needs of the most marginalized in society, prioritized. We need to change America's economy. The hustle culture is some real bullshit.

@ninavizz On the big stuff, we disagree far less than you'd think.

I'm inspired by how successfully #BlackTwitter + #DisabilityTwitter activists self-organized within software built via such problematic economic models. In large part, they did so by leveraging affordances designed by folks who are no longer paid to work at said company.

I'd like to replicate those successes now, in a non-corporate context, without having to wait for the rest of society to fix itself first.

@ninavizz But seeking out like-minded folks for that effort shouldn't take away from the important work you're interested in pursuing.

I don't personally have a budget for engineers or designers, so please accept that my intention was to be inviting, along with my apologies for any distractions on my part. Best of luck!

@pevohr No distractions detected, and no apologies necessary! Social places exist to socialize; which we are. :)

Thx for the clarification, too. I read your POV as an expression of advocacy, not immediate interest in pursuing a project.

My own POV, is that advocacy for folks to continue making OSS unpaid and in a scrappy fashion; because as long as people do that, I don't see the bigger problems of funding OSS or industry pay equity, being solved for. I've done OSS in its current state. 1/2

@pevohr Given the funding and pay inequity disparities, 5yrs of struggling to navigate OSS funding left me feeling drained and angry. And grateful to have met many new friends, collaborated on amazing projects, done work I'm proud of, and all that stuff, too—but self-care and preservation also matter to me, to evangelize to others that haven't yet made stronger demands of funders. I've also studied the problem, and it's very real. Funders need to do better, and they won't until we demand it. 2/2

@kissane this is why we’re friends, erin

the desire to use websites without needing to understand quadratic equations

@beep I have all these math joke replies and I have to leave the internet before my self-respect erodes enough for me to post them

@kissane omg drop them here, I promise I will understand none of them

@beep @kissane please drop them I will love them forever

@tim @beep guys they’re not GOOD math jokes

@kissane this bugs me so much. i've been on Mastodon since 2017, a dozen other social networks since the early 2000s, and even written my own small social network ... despite which i often miss interesting stuff due to federation and still get taken by surprise when links open up in a new window. you mostly get used to it after a while but it is by no means easy!

@beep