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Erin Kissane

The Bluesky closed beta going viral seems to have pulled some attention back to both anti-Black racism and general unwelcoming/ uninclusive design choices on Mastodon, which is good to see…and also I 😬 seeing white tech folks glomming onto a single POV as "What Black People Want."

Fedi needs wide-ranging user research for sure. But also if you're a white person interested in big platform conversations, it's probably a great idea to attend to more than one Black person who talks about it?

@kissane There's this pernicious myth that #Fedi is some monolithic dark cabal. Saying "Fedi should" is like saying "BLM should" or "third wave should."

Forget white tech guys, what about POC tech guys? Tech girls?

Open systems like ActivityPub (or the Internet even) are deliberately designed to provide the people with the opportunity to form things that suit them. But some seem to want it provided by some higher authority.

It's surrendering of power. It's a bad thing. It's how we got here.

@ssfckdt I think "some seem to want it provided by some higher authority" is a common formulation here, and I think it has two massive flaws:

1. There are vanishingly few meaningful ways for most people who aren't OSS devs to contribute to these projects, which helps keep them designed to the taste of OSS devs

2. Most people have whole lives that don't revolve around trying to work out how to contribute to software in their free time, and those people also deserve great neworks.

@kissane this. It isn’t to say that it makes FLOSS approaches per se bad, but there’s a strong presumption baked into the strategies and values of most distributed projects that (metaphorically speaking) people who *really* care about being housed will take up architecture and construction.

@eaton @kissane I think about this a lot: how can we make software more amenable to people doing their own customizing. Not moving walls, not usually, but at least able to paint their own, repair the stairs, start a garden. I don't have answers, but I keep hoping someone has ideas.

@eaton @kissane I actually liken it to renting where you're not allowed to paint the walls. "Don't like it? Buy a house then."

But really, we should all be able to make the little tweaks to our built environment when they don't affect anyone else.

@kissane @ssfckdt I've been trying to follow along and think I hear two opposite themes with no way to choose: random choices by donated open source devs don't create awesome UX, a dedicated team would do that , and that the fediverse exist as it does so no one person, org, monster, can control our experience.

@panmanphil @kissane See, I don't see those as opposites. It comes down to whether you see it as a "you vs them" thing or whether you see it as an "everyone" thing. I see it as I wish it was: an everyone thing.

Like, I've written some open source software. It wasn't nearly as popular as, say, Mastodon, but that's not the point; the point is, I wrote an app, released it for free, released the code for free. People could use it for free, people could alter it for free.

1/2

@panmanphil @kissane

So to me "random choices by donated open source devs" isn't a limit, it's *lack* of a limit.

And for sure, OSS could use help in the UX arena. There is (or should be) room for things like design in OSS. I certainly will freely admit I suck balls at UX :D but I've got functionality down solid. Also, I'm a power user, so my idea of a good UX isn't the same as yours.

But in #OSS, the freedom to make those UXes exists. It doesn't exist in closed models like today's Twitter.

@panmanphil @kissane To add, moreover, solutions like Twitter try to please everyone with one interface. As a result, they suffer from the "lowest common denominator" problem, and usually, end up *less* useful and empowering due to the drive towards ever-simpler interfaces.

That's something that, while not easy for everyone to solve, is far more available to solve in an open system versus a closed one.

You know, someone could probably go far by making a MySpace-like configurable Fedi UI app.

@kissane

1. Again, the notion that "OSS dev" is some kind of oracular high priest role. It's an "othering." But "OSS dev" is anyone who writes a program and shares it and its code for free. It's not a clubhouse.

#Fedi works around a network system, also open and free, that any app is generally free to interact with. It doesn't have to be Mastodon. There's already a dozen Mastodon alternatives that are all on the Fedi. They didn't need to break into a clubhouse, they just made themselves.

@kissane
2. You're right, and I don't really think anyone expects the average person to start coding tomorrow. But somebody can. Somebody who already can code who thinks it would be a worthwhile thing to make. A group of somebodies, and they could be anywhere. And they don't need permission from the "OSS dev" high priests or the Mastodon cabal. It's all open.

In fact, perhaps they already are, and instead of boosting them, we're talking about how there's nothing anyone else can possibly do.

@kissane

Whether they're devs in private industry or open source devs working on their own time and dime, it's devs writing the software. There are even fewer meaningful ways for most people who aren't devs working for private, closed source software to contribute outside of buying the company. The open or closed source nature of a piece of software doesn't arbitrarily put up limits that stop it from providing quality service to people outside of its developer group.

@ssfckdt @kissane

"What about POC tech guys? Tech girls?"

POC and women are under-represented in tech. Until that is fixed, it does not seem reasonable to ask them to solve their own problems.

And... even if they were proportionally represented... women get rape threats from men, black people get abuse from white racists. White men are the source of many problems, why not task them with the solution?

@sgf @kissane The great thing about writing your own software is that no tech bros have to hire you.

Do you really think white men are the best qualified to solve anything for non-white non-men??

Rather, groups should grab hold of all available tools, and use it to elevate themselves -- and more importantly, on their *own* terms. If they want help, I'm sure it can be found.

I don't think any group has ever succeeded at rising up by depending on another group to do the raising for them.

@sgf @kissane Moreover... The only reason we can even identify that underrepresentation is because of the number of those people who *can't* get entry into the field, for known reasons.

So while there may be not many *hired* POC and woman devs, doesn't mean there aren't POC and women *who can be devs*

Which goes back to my point -- when you write your own software, you don't need the approval of the industry. In fact, that's the entire point of OSS in the first place -- to break those chains.

@ssfckdt @kissane Representation in OSS doesn't have the same pressures as in commercial environments, yet in practice it still sucks. So, rather than try to solve problems with a theoretical ideal we should a) try to improve representation b) in the meantime, solve problems with the people we actually have. Which doesn't mean white-men-centric solutions, but almost certainly means white-men-involved.

@sgf @kissane Well, I really don't know why that is. I have ideas, but they sound blamey, and they aren't intended to be.

Like, there's representation as in "minority tech folks can't get tech jobs" and then there's "for some reason minority folks aren't getting into tech as much" and I wish we could explore that more.

But when I see folks tch-tching at things like "all the mastodon docs pages are just unix memes, smh" it's like... maybe shaming techies is counterproductive in this goal.

@sgf @kissane Oh, and, we all have a role to play in that, I think, for sure.

@ssfckdt I get the impression you're assuming the false dichotomy of white men being centred or not involved at all. I'm saying we should be allies because the black people I see would like help.

I'm still not exactly sure of your position, but one interpretation of your writing is "OSS lets people solve their own problems, so white men can wash their hands of the problems they create". I may be arguing against a straw man.

@sgf Well, the narrative so far has not seemed to tend towards help, but rather, to solve, to provide. And I think that's just not a great idea.

Get some POC/XX devs together with white XY devs? Okay. I mean, yeah, we should do that everywhere anyway, but we can start somewhere.

On the other hand, just have some POC/XX folks develop a list of demands and wait for white XY devs to fulfill it? Probably not a great tactic. Even if we could get all white XY devs on board... still not great.

@sgf As for the last part, there's a difference between "you should really seize the means of power as the only way towards true liberation" and "fuck you you're on your own."

There's waiting for someone else to do magic, and then there's doing your own magic.

@ssfckdt While I think I get what you're saying in theory, what I see in practice are posts like this, written by a woman and boosted into my feed by a black man this morning: mastodon.social/@gwynnion/1102

Commercially, but rarely in OSS, there's a distinction between product mgmt and dev, and I think that could be useful. People in disadvantaged groups decide what to build, technical implementation details can go to whoever. Good product mgmt is a lot more than "demand and wait"! :)

MastodonNowhere Girl (@gwynnion@mastodon.social)One of the more annoying Mastodon tropes is someone popping in unsolicited to tell you, "You can have exactly what you want on here if you do all of the work yourself!" Without seeming to realize how obnoxious that is.

@sgf I really find those sorts of retorts both lazy and self defeating. It's an admission that you want someone else to grant you your wishes at the snap of your fingers.

But nothing ever ever good was made that way.

It's not a matter of blame or obligation. It's a matter of the best part towards succeeding.

If you want something done right, etc.

Also, and I think this is key, there has to be an acceptance that maybe what they want to see *isn't Mastodon.*

@ssfckdt I think we're at an impasse.

Almost all commercial software is trying to grant wishes at the snap of the fingers, for money.

Demanding features on a random OSS project can be pretty toxic because it's often a request for something for nothing.

OTOH, with social media, "granting wishes" is a trade for their presence. I benefit from network effects and diversity.

Then we're back to who Mastodon is for, and what the right features are, and I think we just disagree.

@sgf I feel like "Demanding features on a random OSS project can be pretty toxic because it's often a request for something for nothing." is exactly my point here, more or less.

There's a difference imo between granting wishes and compromise.

When it comes to "what the right features are," in my mind the potential variety for apps (in an open model like this) means not all apps have to please all people.

Certainly there are POC on Masto who do not find its functionality inherently anti-POC.

@sgf Moreover, I think "Almost all commercial software is trying to grant wishes at the snap of the fingers, for money." is part of the problem. And people have become normalized to it. Somewhere along the way, we lost the idea that people can chart their own courses rather than be dependent on those commercial models.

And not all of those commercial models please all consumers, either... and those that try to, again, suffer from the dilution of chasing the L.C.D.

@sgf And ... we're getting close to the touchy issue of 'does every idea get implemented just because people want it, even if it would fundamentally destroy the thing it would be implemented in?'

@ssfckdt Yeah, this is a tough one. e.g. I've got to believe there's a way to stop black people saying "We do not feel welcome here" without killing the original Mastodon spaces, a bunch of which are marginalised groups themselves.

I don't have a good idea how, but I at least want people to make a really considered attempt.

In short... "under-represented in tech" means there are more out there than we know of. Which is the opposite of your point.

@kissane find me a fediverse user research group to attach myself to...