Back

@MikeDunnAuthor

The Kronstadt Rebellion was a counter-revolutionary insurrection. The whole rebellion was a misguided revolt caused by the sailors' and workers' inability to understand that the economic hardships they faced wasn't a betrayal of the workers by the Bolsheviks, but a result of the difficult transition to a new socialist economy, which was exacerbated by the Civil War and foreign blockades.

@Radical_EgoCom and their inability to understand that authoritarianism was for their own good.

@MikeDunnAuthor

Apparently, the inability to understand the cause-and-effect of complex geopolitical issues persists to this day. "Just blame the Bolsheviks and not the national and international bourgeois" is the calling cry of the anti-authoritarians.

@Radical_EgoCom @MikeDunnAuthor

I haven't seen a good solution to bad guys abusing an anarchist setup.

And I have yet to see MLs plausibly explain the actual mechanics of the withering of the state under a socialist DotP.

Also the whole authoritarian vs anti-authoritarian dichotomy needs some kind of radical reframing imo.

@JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

The withering away of the state follows the successful establishment of socialism, as the state, an instrument of class domination, becomes unnecessary. Initially, during the dictatorship of the proletariat, the state is crucial for suppressing the bourgeoisie and defending the revolution. As class distinctions diminish and a classless society develops, the state will gradually lose its governance role, ultimately leading to its dissolution. #socialism #communism

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor thats like an answer out of a book, and probably what was imagined, yet no sign of the "withering of the state" has taken place after in any big socialist revolutions, instead the state was reinforced over and over against outside threat's, which would be somewhat reasonable as well as inside dissidents. Whats not reasonable is sending anarchists and social revolutionaries to their deaths, which had no lesser part in the Russian Revolution than the Bolsheviks

@theDuesentrieb @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

There was never a time given for how long the DotP would have to last, only that it would have to last as long as internal and external class threats existed, and unfortunately the socialist experiments that have existed either dissolved for one reason or another before reaching the withering away phase and full communism or currently exist and are still required to exist due to internal/external class threats. 1/2

@theDuesentrieb @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

It's very reasonable for socialist states to punish people (regardless of whether they previously helped the revolution or not) for (either intentionally or unknowingly) initiating counter-revolutionary opposition, whether it be the anarchists seeking to abolish the socialist state prematurely or the social democrats seeking to introduce revisionism into the state. 2/2

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor well thats a convenient excuse, isn't it? If any opposition regarding the state as a political tool is silenced, who would ever dare to speak out for it's "withering", if doing so would likely come with the accusation of being "counter-revolutionary"?

With acting like that imo the Bolsheviks determined the end of the revolution, building an authoritarian state (which had its achievements nonetheless) which would either remain just this or fail and fall back into capitalism, like it happened in russia as well as china.

I find it fatal to stick to the same recipes from over a hundred years ago (not just because of the time but of the materialist conditions of the time) and repeat the same mistakes (of which anarchists made plenty as well), when building towards future revolutions.

@theDuesentrieb @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

You don't "speak out" for the withering away of the state. You're seem to be mistaking "withering away" with "abolition." The withering away of the state happens after class has been abolished. Class can only be abolished through a socialist state and its equalization of social conditions. Since the state is a tool of class oppression, once class no longer exists, the state will eventually wither away.

@Radical_EgoCom @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor ok, if using this terms: As the state is a tool of class oppression, it requires classes of oppressor's and oppressed. That far I agree.

I would also argue that a state always works towards this class division to preserve it's existence, and to resolve it is directly opposed to the state itself. So if one oppressing class is toppled, another takes it's place.

In theory with the so called DotP the classes just switched places. I would argue that very soon after the revolution in russia, no significant part of the bourgeoisie was present in russia, either fled or executed, the MoP taken.

Therefore with the new state in place two classes formed. One of Bolshevik party functionaries, dissolving the sovjets and centralize control over the MoP and the once more disenfranchised proletariat, while the former claimed to speak for the latter.

I assume you would most likely disagree with the last part. I would be honestly curious, how anyone can ever work towards liberation of the working class, if said working class has no control whatsoever over it?

@theDuesentrieb @JoeChip @MikeDunnAuthor

Yes, the Soviet Union did have a class of Bolshevik functionaries (referred to as the "nomenklatura") who had access to privileges, resources, and benefits that were not available to the general population. The Soviet Union was in the process of trying to eliminate class, but, as briefly mentioned previously, did not achieve a classless society and unfortunately collapsed before it could.

@JoeChip @theDuesentrieb @MikeDunnAuthor

Class threats come from outside the country, too. It isn't just the bourgeoisie of one country that will try to destroy socialism, but the bourgeoisie of other countries as well. Organized self-defense against all class threats, both from inside or outside the country, is consistent with the commitment to remove class distinctions.

@Radical_EgoCom @theDuesentrieb @MikeDunnAuthor

"Consistent with" is radically insufficient. This is where everything breaks down. I argue with as much force as I can muster that the removal of class distinctions must be an objectively measurable process. Indefinite extensions to this process cannot be permitted.

Parallel to this process must be a political reform that returns operational control of production to people's soviets.

@JoeChip @theDuesentrieb @MikeDunnAuthor

Revolution doesn't happen in a vacuum, which you seem to be arguing as if it does, as if every country can have one single plan for how to abolish class, as if every country experiences the exact same things at the exact same times in the exact same ways and can have a check list, pre-written, for how to abolish class, as if unforeseen or unavoidable obstacles won't prevent the abolition of class and delay it.