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Knitting-verse! Let's talk about inclusivity.
I have followed the whole pattern sharing/theft debate and found myself wanting. Wanting of a less moralizing view and one that factors in poverty (inside and outside of the global north). Also perspectives about what can be changed to actually include poor people in this craft.
I really like this quote: "we are saying to people either spend money that you can't afford [...] or you have to spend time that you can't afford [...] or you shouldn't want that"
from the video Cheryl Reynolds made about the topic: https://youtu.be/VVgCl-l8UKE
What is your opinion?
Also feel free to share other interesting takes on other platforms.
And if you haven't heard of the debate yet: CinemaKnits made an interesting deep dive into the topic: https://youtu.be/LuxyRr_aP7A
(Also look into the comment section)
@flips from a rhetoric point of view, this is an excellent post. I’m not sure it’s possible to answer “there are more completely free, high quality patterns than anyone could knit in a lifetime” without immediately qualifying as moralising.
@kerravonsen @venite I don't think that's moralizing. And I think you are right that they are a great deal of available patterns.
But it's also about access to the community in my eyes. Why shouldn't poor people be able to knit recent "trending" patterns only because they i.e. come from a country where those patterns cost two days wages? I am looking for ways to include those people and not just say they should not participate.
@flips @kerravonsen the focus a part of the community has on “trending” patterns is something which goes against most of my personal knitting-related morals, so I don’t think I can offer much there :)
@kerravonsen @flips I get that some people get a kick out of making the same thing together and that it can scratch a social itch, but spending weeks or months of time plus yarn money on something that does not suit me exactly 100% feels like a waste to me. I will never do a Stephen West MKAL. But I will try to help anyone who asks a question in the knitting group and squeal over every finished object I find pretty or impressive or have seen the maker grow into. That’s community for me.
@kerravonsen @flips same, although I agree that someone can feel left out because it’s too expensive. I do hope they don’t feel like they don’t belong in the knitting community because of it, though.
@venite @kerravonsen I am not just talking about trends. But I am just thinking, why should everyone pay the same when the what they pay isn't worth the same? In my community there is a lot of flexible pricing: People who have more can choose to pay more and people who have less, pay less. I have only seen that on one knitting pattern so far. I think it should be an equal access so that it can be a choice to buy or use free resources.
I think that has an influence on who feels & is included
@venite @kerravonsen I hear a lot right now about how knitting is resistance, knitting is revolutionary - so I don't think it's too much to ask how we can take everyone with us
@flips @kerravonsen I think a pay-what-you-can model is to be applauded, and down with capitalism etc., but it makes me very sad that people think we “can’t take everyone with us” or can’t be revolutionary because some patterns cost money. That’s such a reductive view of the community and makes me think we should work much harder at enabling people to really express themselves with their knitting.
@venite @kerravonsen I just think events like this discord show that there is an interest in those patterns. and instead of saying "you shouldn't want that" we could think of ways to make that possible. and find out why the need is there. Imagine a new knitter who is fat. Most free patterns come in a smaller size range and they don't know yet how to adjust that themselves.
@flips @venite
Let me restate what I think you are saying:
1. SOME patterns are expensive for people in poor countries.
2. This is not fair. They OUGHT to be cheaper.
3. "We" ought to "do something".
So, what options are there?
1. Steal them. (not an option)
2. Buy them and "share" them (aka steal them) (not an option)
3. Pester the pattern-sellers (some of which are big corps) to change to a pay-what-you-can model. (Won't work. The big corps will laugh at you, and the individual pattern makers need to put bread on the table.)
4. Buy a pattern twice and give the second one away. (Might work, though there could be some tricky logistics.)
5. Set up a charity which essentially does (4) but on a larger scale.
@flips @venite @kerravonsen I'm part of an inclusive knitting community that includes a bunch of designers who have pay-what-you-can patterns. So it's not just the one.
@WizardOfDocs that sounds great! do you mind sharing the community? (if it's meant for that)
@flips pinging @SolaceInStitches to double check that I can invite people to the discord
we also do @fastenoffyal in November/December
@WizardOfDocs @flips @fastenoffyal yes you can invite people and the fasten off yarnalong database is accessible the whole year.
www.fastenoffyal.com
@flips @venite
I'm completely baffled here. How on earth is "use free patterns" equivalent to "don't participate"? Or am I supposed to be devastated and think that I myself am "not participating" because I'm not knitting "trending" patterns? Because I choose not to. Because I think the thousands of free patterns are more than enough to satisfy me? If I am satisfied myself, then I find it extremely difficult to sympathise with the dilemma you present here.
@flips @kerravonsen @venite unfortunately, the vast majority of free high-quality patterns are hosted exclusively on a website that causes migraines and seizures.
I very much appreciated Ravelry's free patterns when I didn't have the money to buy patterns, and their UI didn't make me physically ill, but now I can't even go there.
@WizardOfDocs @flips @venite
Can you get a browser plugin which will make the site more accessible? I know there are plugins which can impose "dark mode" on websites, would that help?
@kerravonsen @flips @venite I've tried a couple CSS editors and the regular dark mode. So far, none of those have done enough.
@WizardOfDocs @flips @venite
Maybe this will help: https://yarnandy.com/making-ravelry-more-accessible-on-desktop-pcs/
@flips Are you a troll?
@kerravonsen Not that I know of. Why do you suspect that?
@flips Because your original post is phrased in such a way that it seems as if you just wanted to stir up controversy.
I also thought about this in regards to books. I buy my books mostly second-hand, or from free libraries, and I'm also a member of my local library.
But for knitting patterns, somehow it feels like a crime to give a pattern that I bought and I have used once to a friend. I would with a book.
I do get that people want to earn a living. I also know that I write books and I do that because I want to, not to get rich.
Another thought I had. As I'm getting more proficient in knitting, one of my goals this year is to design my own sweater. But, all the things I know from knitting, are from other patterns, books, community advise here, youtube tutorials. Even if I would make a great pattern, it wouldn't feel right to sell it, because it is based on community knowledge. Even if I spend time and resources to develop a pattern.
Maybe the capitalist mindset that you own what you make, is the problem