(1/2)
Via CNN:
"US officials are viewing the next few weeks as a critical period that will demonstrate #Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin #Netanyahu’s willingness to move to a lower-intensity phase of going after #Hamas in #Gaza."
"The topic of the war’s trajectory as been at the center of conversations between #American and Israeli officials, including a lengthy phone call between President Joe #Biden and #Netanyahu...
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-01-01-24/index.html
@HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine US officials are hoping that Israel will pretend to lower the intensity of their murder of civilians to take the pressure off #GenocideJoe
@Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
Biden is right to demand that Israel reduce collateral damage. Israel is right to target Hamas terrorists.
The #GenocideJoe hashtag thing is a lie.
@TruthSandwich @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
Nah, Israel doesn't have a right to exist, let alone do genocide. (Or have nukes). #GeocideJoe should be dragged before to ICC as well.
@NoFlexZone @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
Saying that Israel doesn't have a right to exist is literally a call for genocide against Israelis.
Since you're pro-genocide, you don't get to complain when Gazans die because of the Hamas massacre.
@TruthSandwich @NoFlexZone @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine calling for an end to ethnic cleansing and genocide is not the same as calling for genocide, you dumb dumb. Israel came to be by means of a murderous ethnic cleansing, research what the Nakba was. Calling for an end to an Apartheid State is not the same as calling for the murder of the inhabitants of said State, it means calling for the end of a political body.
@argumento @NoFlexZone @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
Saying Israel has no right to exist is calling for genocide.
@TruthSandwich @NoFlexZone @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine lol, that's nonsense. Israel is a State, a political institution. I can call for the end of a political body without meaning I want to murder every person that belongs to said body.
Want an example? I wish the GOP didn't exist, I don't think a bigoted and warmongering party has a right to exist. See?
Want another example? Death to America.
@argumento @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine of course @TruthSandwich just came here to try to normalize genocide because they they want genocide in Palestine because they are apparently a Zionist in support of Israel.
The point for accounts like "Truth" are other than Hasbara, is to generate screen caps. Good, fine, lets talk about it - colonizers get what they get. My hope is they get tf out, barring that, that colonizers get lead.
@NoFlexZone @argumento @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
This is dripping with conspiratorial thinking.
And, yes, you just did call for genocide. Again.
@TruthSandwich @argumento @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
The truth of the matter is that it doesn't and colonizers should btfo'd by any means necessary.
Be it Aeoterra to the Malvinas, from Occupied Azania bacc round again to Turtle & Condor Islands, colonizers should go tf home.
@TruthSandwich to be perfectly honest, the only reason Israelis right to existence is brought up lately is to counter the voices calling for ceasefire and stopping the genocide. That should tell us something about it’s legitimacy.
That aside, I can loathe the Ethnostate of Zion without hating on Jews.
@argumento @NoFlexZone @Outpatientzero @HistoPol @Lastresponder @palestine
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
You can oppose Israel being an ethnostate without opposing its existence as a state. (Ask me how I know.)
@TruthSandwich But it’s existence in a current form is the leading source of state coercion and apartheid, not even mentioning the bloody upbringing that was Nakbah.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Then argue for the removal of Likud from power and for the state to be neutral wrt Judaism.
Do not argue that retaliating against Hamas is "genocide" or that Hamas is justified in committing genocide (as @NoFlexZone just did).
@TruthSandwich I mean, Israel has killed more than 20 thousands of civilians. I find this absolutely unacceptable. If this is okay, so was the attack of Oct. 7. And I don’t think we should go that way.
But yeah, I will totally call that genocide. They have indiscriminately murdered thousands of innocent people without second thought. Perhaps Hamas would commit such atrocities, too. But it lacks the capacity to. On the other hand, Israel is absolutely capable of dealing death on unprecedented scale without any backlash and so it does.
Do not write genocide in quotes, it absolutely is. Because it’s hardly a retaliation against Hamas. It’s just state mandated terror.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
To remind you, nobody forced Hamas to break the ceasefire with a massacre. They chose to do it for the sole purpose of triggering a counterattack.
So if you're angry at someone for the Gazan deaths, be angry at Hamas, the Iranian terrorists who are their nominal government.
@TruthSandwich We have proof Mossad have known and allowed the attack. But that aside, is this really fair to weigh a rabid dog fundamentalists and terrorists the same as institutionalised state officials? I think not.
Retaliating and murdering this amount of civilians (or any) is unacceptable. And so is defending Oct. 7. There isn’t much difference between the two.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
A government is not a person; one part can know something without the whole being able to act upon it.
As for "20k civilians", this is false. There is no reason to think that these people are all civilians. In fact, Hamas is the primary target, so we should expect them to be overrepresented.
@TruthSandwich Holy fucking shit. Go fuck yourself, man.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
How many Gazans who've died so far are Hamas? Is there even a clean line between Hamas militants and noncombatants?
Before you answer, consider this: https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780307
@TruthSandwich Okay, folks. By this logic we might as well just level Gaza to the ground and murder every single Palestinian. Acceptable casualties, is this right?
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
As I just said, Israel should minimize collateral damage and it's not clear that it's doing so. But, as I also just said, Hamas has gone out of its way to ensure high collateral damage, starting with the entire war it sparked.
The massacre had the foreseeable consequence, if not actual goal, of getting tens of thousands of Gazans killed. Hamas knew this. Hamas didn't care. Hamas killed these people through its actions, its choice. Israel has limited choice here.
@TruthSandwich Hold on. Did you really say Hamas has started this bloodbath? This is just not true. This conflict hasn’t started on Oct. 7.
I am no longer interested in continuing this discussion. Go appeasing your genocide to someone else. I am way too disgusted.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Nothing forced Hamas to massacre Israelis. Nothing justifies this massacre.
It was done so as to spark a war, cold-bloodedly trading Palestinian lives for a PR win.
@TruthSandwich By this logic, nobody forced Israelis to commit the atrocities of first Nakbah.
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7th.
Just like Germany attacked Poland on Sept. 1st 1939.
Propaganda talk like "Since 5:45 a.m. we have been returning the fire" doesn't change that fact.
It’s only true if we ignore 76 years of colonial conflict Israel engaged in on the aggressor’s side.
It is nothing alike Germany invading Poland. Mostly because it’s not a war between two sovereign countries. But even if we ignore that, the attack of Oct. 7 was more akin to what the Volhynia massacre in 1943 was to Poland. And you know, that also didn’t happen in vacuum.
So kindly go fuck yourself, you genocide apologist.
(1/n)
"The footage shows a terrorist presenting himself as a civilian while hiding an RPG-type rocket under a blanket in a civilian area. This strategy, and the use of Gazan citizens as human shields, has been a well-recorded tactic of Hamas."
I have at least two issues with this:
1). The source is hardly objective.
2.) Even if the above were true, and I do not doubt that, the point where ...
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento@hispagatos.space @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@TruthSandwich
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
(2/n)
..."some" civilians became "#CollateralDamage" has long been past.
Dislocating the inhabitants of a whole region while oblitering all civilian infrastructure cannot be justified by self-defense anymore. The legal commentaries that I've heard agree with this stance that international law does not sanction the #IDF's brutal actions as ordered by the ult-right #Likud government.
In an (international)...
@TruthSandwich @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
(3/n)
...order governed by "law and order" one party (#Hamas) committing savage atrocities (i.e. #HumanRightsAbuses, #terrorism, and #WarCrimes), does *not* legitimize the attacked party to commence an all-out war in the sense of committing crimes against civilians. Most of the #Gazans are non-combattant civilians.
Once the #IDF leaves and journalists do not become "collateral damage" on an enormous scale...
@TruthSandwich @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
(4/n)
...anymore, international pressure on the Israeli government will mount and it will eventually fold.
Hopefully, not too late, though it is already too late for thousands of Gazans...and Israelis (to a lesser extent.)
//
@HistoPol @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
This is not one data point, and it is not peripheral. Every bit of evidence points in the same direction: Hamas has removed any distinction between civilian and military.
They committed war crimes by using hospitals, homes, and schools as military command centers and weapons caches. They dug deep tunnels under civilian areas and likewise used them for these purposes.
By design, there is no way to attack Hamas without hitting their human shields.
Given this, and the fact that they intentionally started this war, we can only conclude that Hamas wanted Palestinians to die en masse, to be martyred for their cause.
You don't get to cause something and then complain about it. If Hamas hadn't wanted these deaths, they wouldn't have happened.
Call me coldblooded or whatever, but I refuse to be manipulated by sociopathic Realpolitik.
@TruthSandwich Please tell me, what does the fact they are an official Palestinian government bring to the table? Because for me, it’s absolutely worthless. They are as legitimate as Putin, Lukashenko or the Taliban. Or perhaps you’re one of these people who think that they are absolutely representative of Palestinian cause?
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Hamas couldn't care less about the Palestinians it claims to represent. That's the point.
They are the de facto government, as illegitimate as they are, and they use Gaza freely as their base of operations. So when they commit a massacre, Gaza is targeted.
They also commit various additional war crimes by intermixing military and civilian buildings, using Gazans as human shields.
@TruthSandwich Okay. And I do not say no to any of that. But tell me, how does that justify Israeli murder of 20k civilians?
@palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
If it wasn't Bibi, Israel might make a reasonable effort to minimize collateral damage. It does not appear to be doing so. Then again, it's not clear that it would help much, because of that intermixing and human shield strategy.
On top of that, failing to avoid collateral damage is still not the same as Hamas' policy of targeting noncombatants.
@TruthSandwich @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero Just chiming in to say that no one Israeli politician (even Netanyahu) caused this. This would likely be happening even if he had lost the election because Israel is a colonial ethno-state and the logic of its existence requires it to maintain a genocidal position of dominance. https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/netanyahu-is-the-problem/
But, besides that, a prime motivator for the ever-increasing right-wing politics in Israel is literally that Israel has been allowing Israelis to force Palestinians out of their homes for years. Just taking over the property with either the covert or overt support of the IDF.. At a purely economic level, it is in the average Israeli person's interest to maintain this kind of violence because someone else's blood is the cheapest way to buy land. It's no surprise that it's trivial to find Israeli sources talking about Palestinians like they're not people. If the people stealing their land considered them people, they might have qualms about stealing the land.
Oh and, even outside of confrontations with Hamas, Israel is a world leader in weapons design. How do they test those designs? By using them on Palestinians. See, for example, the AI turrets designed to identify and shoot Palestinians with less-lethal weapons. See also their yeyars of using of fully-AI drones for war, including during the ongoing conflict. You want to talk about how they need to be better about reducing casualties? They could start with stopping firing self-piloting rockets into Gaza indiscriminately; does it SOUND reasonable that these rockets could reliably choose to target a Hamas militant instead of a civilian?
@lethargilistic @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Regardless of who the PM was, the Oct. 7th massacre would have had its intended effect.
Anyone would have reacted with retaliation, and given how Hamas is intermixed, the collateral damage would have been nearly as high.
@TruthSandwich @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero You've really got to relax this assumption that any country would react this way. Not every country would use white phosphorous. Not every country would be using AI weaponry to absolve themselves of culpability for collateral killings. Not every country would be floating the idea of using nuclear weapons.
I don't even like countries (none of them have a right to exist and they should not), but I think a good number of them are a bit above indiscriminate violence against one of the most oppressed people in the world. For any reason. Like half of the Gazan population is literal children, mate. And the number of people killed by the IDF in the *West Bank* in 2023 TRIPLED the previous record set in *checks notes* 2022.
After a war has begun, fine. Anything's on the table because the idea that countries discipline their militaries is a myth. But before the war? It's definitely a Choice.
@lethargilistic @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Hamas broke the ceasefire with a massacre. They killed about 1,200 people, explicitly targeting civilians, including infants and elderly. They beat and raped and kidnapped. They're still holding hostages, who are presumably being beaten and raped.
No country in the world would have just let this slide. You can spout anarchist nonsense. You can complain about the exact methods used in the retaliation. You can try to blame everyone but Hamas for the war they intentionally started.
But you can't pretend that this was ever going to end any other way. Hamas got the war they demanded and all the civilian casualties in Gaza that they could have hoped for. Mission accomplished.
@TruthSandwich @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero Matey, Hamas is bad. I'm not sure anyone in this thread praised them or denied that. They're fundamentalists who impose upon Palestinians. They have centralized and held onto power within their organization for like 20-30 years. It's not common for anarchists to support them, and I certainly don't.
Neither collective punishment or ethnic cleansing are reasonable answers, and they wouldn't be reasonable for any other country either. Those alone are war crimes, if you want to get international.
However, this war isn't about revenge for those people. Those people are a pretext. If the Israelis were really interested in ending this conflict and seeking a mutual peace, there are all kinds of oppressive things that they could just stop doing. Respect the Gazan border. Stop treating Palestinians as second-class (non-)people. Even now, they could just stop the conflict and retreat, saying 20K was enough. If they REALLY want to do more violence, they might force an election for a new government or something.
But Israel chose to carry out an ethnic cleansing campaign (again!) because they're a colonial state founded with the goal of taking the land. If you can't even acknowledge that, then you don't know enough about this political situation to comment on it, to be frank.
@dung_eater @palestine @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@TruthSandwich why does a rogue nuclear power deserve to exist fully, unsanctioned and welcomed into the "international community of nations(-states)"?
You always seem to overlook that bit about the violations of nuclear nonproliferation law.
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
This is a war between Iran and Israel, two nuclear powers.
@TruthSandwich
So you think that all Palestinians should have their land returned and have full and equal rights in a one state solution?
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@Provinto @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
No, a one-state solution is hopeless. Neither group has any willingness to coexist within the same borders.
The best we can hope for is a two-state solution, and that's something the Palestinians have consistently rejected for decades. Likewise, Likud does not support it.
Instead, Hamas wants a zero-state solution: kill all Israelis and take over. This would be genocide, and it's also not going to happen.
@TruthSandwich
You make many broad statements here which don't reflect reality. But their extraneous to my question so I'll just just get to my point:
You don't oppose the ethnostate.
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@Provinto @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Well, yes, actually, I do. I'm very much on record as doing so.
For example, here's a blog post from a couple of years ago, and I continue to stand by what it says.
https://truth-sandwich.com/2021/10/25/colonialism-and-consequences/
@TruthSandwich
That's cute (misinformed). How do you expect a two-state solution involving Palestine and an Israel that's no longer Israel (no longer manifesting its genocidal destiny) to work out? Seems like it defeats the purpose of a two-state solution, which was to allow a Palestinian state to exist under/alongside Israel.
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@Provinto @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
To remind you, Hamas literally does not acknowledge Israel's right to exist, so there is no future in which a Palestinian state can sit next to an Israeli one without war.
@TruthSandwich
This is exactly why Zionist terrorists love Hamas. If they had to deal with DFLP or PFLP or any of the Palestinian leaders they've detained it'd be much harder to "mow the lawn".
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
@Provinto @dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
Let me know when you find those "Zionist terrorists".
@Provinto Hey! Could you please untag me from the discussion? The guy blocked me, so I’m out. Thank you!
@dung_eater sure thing. I think it's over. He asked me to show him a Zionist terrorist, I pointed out Likud, and he hasn't responded (cuz liberals can't conceive of state terrorism since they already consider it to be a neutral violence).
@Provinto Jesus fucking Christ. But hey, great job.
@TruthSandwich to remind you that Netanyahu and his bible fascists and possibly 60%+ of Israelis don’t believe there’s a Palestinian people … But from an international law perspective non of this matters. Israel broke many laws and got a way with it. Demanding it would only negotiate with an entity that recognizes it is an excuse. You don’t get occupy someone’s land, exile its people, lock’em up and bomb them every now and then, and then ask them to show you respect. It’s just not going to happen.
This is why:
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero @TruthSandwich
I know plenty of Jewish folks who have thrown down as hard as anyone in the U$ against this horrific genocide. They know Fascism when they see it and are doing something about it. In the first three weeks after this started, I was in DC. I was there as Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow blockaded the White House and beseiged a Capitol office building while holding a CD inside. It was also those two groups that went after the DNC a few weeks after I returned to FL, and faced so much police aggression for doing so.
@dung_eater @palestine @NoFlexZone @argumento @LukefromDC @HistoPol @Lastresponder @Outpatientzero
I've known about IfNotNow for years. They're fake.