I thought the Vice President responded to the protestors in Phoenix with respect. She acknowledged their concerns and made an emphatic statement for a ceasefire. They've now protested by heckling at two consecutive rallies + the VP had a one-on-one meeting with representatives of the protest prior to Wisconsin rally. For mine, they've made their point - in a democracy they can continue to heckle but they've made their point. #harriswalz @kamalaharrisforpresidentnews
The wave of positivity fuelling the Harris camp is indeed a wonderful thing and Walz will be perfect VP. They're inspiring and I have no doubt will trounce Trump.
However the US-backed Israeli genocide is still taking place every single day. Yesterday the Israelis bombed a school and murdered over 100 people, claiming there was a ‘high probability’ a PIJ commander was inside.
How can you expect people to put aside their disgust of their country supporting an active genocide?
@BobLefridge I'm not and that's not what I wrote. I just expressed the view that they have communicated to the VP their distress and its clear she's got it. I'm sure she's doing everything she personally can to expedite a ceasefire.
@BobLefridge @NZedAUS no I don’t believe she is/will do anything other than give platitudes. The USA are the baddies.
@alpinefolk @BobLefridge I respectfully beg to differ...framing an incredibly complex situation as a simple "goodies v baddies" ignores the role of other Arab nations, other western orgs (UN/EU), multiple internal parties within Israel itself and Iran-backed terrorist orgs and more.
With genocide, there are no "goodies & baddies" -- only perpetrators and victims.
None of the situational complexity overrules the fact that the world is witnessing a horrific genocide, nor the fact that the current US administration is willingly supporting it. Without US weapons, Netanyahu would be impotent.
If I was American of course I'd vote for Harris & Walz because the alternative is the end of democracy. But ignore an active genocide? Sorry, can't do that.
@BobLefridge @alpinefolk repeat...I've never expressed the view that what is happening in Gaza can and should be ignored. I truly believe Harris has got their message and is working to conclude a binding ceasefire. Its not straightforward...there are many moveable parts to achieving a BINDING ceasefire.
@NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Howdy,
There was a time when I said I wasn’t going to vote for Democrats because of Gaza.
But then I read Project 2025.
I have disagreements with Democrats. But Walz gives me hope.
We’re in for Kamala. I’ve channeled my inner Palestinian in other directions —until November 6th.
@spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk The only hope for any accountability for Netanyahu is a s US Democractic president. The world's courts will be swayed by the US courage or fear of billionaire funding of elections. Yes, at this moment Harris has to ride the center line or lose the election.
@janisf @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
I hate to tell you this, but Netanyahu will not be controlled by Harris anymore than he has been by Biden or was by Obama.
I agree Harris is the best choice for Gaza and the Middle East, but do not count on Bibi caring one way or the other.
@MiriShuli @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Bibi won't care, but Orban might, and there are plenty of other gobal fence-riders who'll cue in.
@MiriShuli @janisf @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
Netanyahu is the Israeli Trump.
Narcissistic sociopaths are not “controlled” by anyone, unless they are in an institution with high walls and straight jackets.
@andytiedye @paninid @MiriShuli @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk That's a can o' worms, right there. For now, yes. What we can't have are non-transparent criminal court systems, or nation states (or other organizations) fighting over whose "international" is actually international. There's also justified local violence against governments exercising oppressive law.
If the ICC took its cues from the open source community, I'd fully support it.
@janisf @paninid @MiriShuli @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk I understand the ICC wants the leadership of Israel AND Hamas. That seems about right to me. Both committed war crimes.
@MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
A group I volunteered with brought Middle East expert Dr. Nader Hashemi to Aspen to speak. Hashemi believes that the situation is hopeless unless 3 things happen: new governments in Gaza, Israel, and the United States.
Sobering. Sad. Depressing. But it’s what he said. I agree with him.
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @janisf @BobLefridge @alpinefolk the challenge in respect of Israeli leadership is forming a governing coalition - even a more centrist Israeli gvt (more flexible and open to options) typically requires the support (to varying degrees) of religious/conservative parties. That being said - secular Israelis are ready to move on from Netanyahu.
@NZedAUS @MiriShuli @janisf @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Hashemi doesn’t believe there’s anyone in the Israeli government, or on the bench, who believes in anything other than wiping out Gaza.
The only hope is Israel's citizens rise up and elect new leaders. But given recent polling, most aren’t favorable to returning to the 67 borders. There’s almost no support for a single state.
I think it’s going to boil over into war.
@spinbackwards @NZedAUS @MiriShuli @janisf @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Polls from the beginning of the year have a large minority of Israelis backing two states, increasing to a small majority if the poll explicitly states that the deal includes full normalization with the Arab world, which is still on the table per Saudi Arabia. There's practically no support for a binational state in either Israel or Palestine, which is why people who are from neither should stop pushing it.
@Alon There's more to the story.
The only compromise Hamas will accept today is a return to the '67 borders, which there's just about zero support for amongst Israel's citizens.
@spinbackwards The negotiations are not with Hamas but with the PA, whose support rises and falls with its achievements through diplomacy. Negotiate two states with Abbas with the land swaps that were informally agreed to 16 years ago on the eve of Bibi's election and suddenly Fatah is the party that ended the Occupation while Hamas gets sidelined as the party that brought ruin to Gaza. (PCPSR polling has Gazan support for two states rising rapidly in the first few months of the war.)
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Well, the US rotates, by design. And though I love the concept behind the Aspen Ideas Festival, it's pretty critical to notice who goes there, see that it's not affordable for most, and tread very carefully when it comes to calling for government overthrow. I'll look into his work, for sure.
@MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
When Hashemi said "new leaders" he didn't mean Harris, some Democratic whipper snapper, some liberal in the Israeli government, or a Palestinian visionary that people could get behind..
Hashemi is talking about leaders in the U.S., Israel, and Gaza with a completely new mindset.
Then he paused and said something like, "I don't know of any".
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @janisf @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Rabin was the last Israeli leader that you could describe with a different mindset, but that was a long time ago. I don't think it's just Israel/US/Palestine - as the two Arab nations most geographically adjacent and with historical responsibilities, Egypt and Jordan also need to be party to any future durable agreement.
@NZedAUS Also worth noting, Netantayu was involved in Rabin's assassination. "allegedly"
@farbel first time I've heard that.
@NZedAUS Yes. But you can see how far off this is. We're basically asking to change the world and somehow bring into the world righteous people.
It all is just so effing depressing once you try to connect the dots.
But you're here, so am I. Others too. We're talking. We're trying to get our vibes out.
Thank you for that.
@MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
Someone in this thread branded me as some kind of selfish, rich white guy who doesn’t care about Palestinians. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Our group also got a ceasefire resolution passed in Glenwood Springs. I’m quoted in the article.
Maybe instead of throwing digital stones, go out and do something for Palestinians.
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
I thought that whole area was deep red like the Rifle wacko.
@Ralph058 Howdy,
What "whole area"? Are you speaking to where I live?
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Yeah, I got hit, too. Admittedly, I haven't done as much. My kid got arrested by the Chicago PD. I got my tent back, tho.
It's increasingly difficult to take a not-abstracted, long-game oriented position. it's also really hard to show people that the rhythm and timing of politics matters, that steering the narrative isn't about a constant scream.
@janisf Howdy Janis,
You're here, you obviously care. Gracias.
I hope folks channel their actions to helping the Palestinians. Organize, call your MOC, attend city council meetings. Buy stuff from shops in the West Bank.
And yes, right now that means voting for Harris.
Because what little chance the Palestinians have left, is gone once Trump takes office. Him and Jared are gonna build timeshares on the beach in Gaza.
@spinbackwards Thank you for your advocacy! @MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
@spinbackwards @MiriShuli @janisf @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk I understand your being misunderstood. Don't lose heart. Your actions prove you. You've contributed to Palestinians via work like the ceasefire resolution. Ignore those unaware. They don't represent the real you. Let's encourage each other and keep working for Palestinians. Your efforts will be recognized. You're not alone. We aim the same
@MiriShuli @janisf @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
The only thing to get rid of Bibi will be the Israeli people.
They are fed up with him and 10/7 only prolonged his control. They hate the guy, but are stuck at the moment.
I got so depressed after meeting with Hashemi that my heart hurt. I had to pull away.
Like I say, I was going to not vote D. But then I read Project 2025, as I wrote.
Then it became clear that what little chance the Palestinians have is getting Harris in office. Because Trump and Jared will wipe out Gaza to build timeshares.
@Jfrites @MiriShuli @janisf @spinbackwards @BobLefridge @alpinefolk this is the truth.
@Jfrites @MiriShuli @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk I'm a long-game kinda person. I want to see an Israel that won't elect anyone like him again. There's reason to be scared where they are.
@janisf @MiriShuli @spinbackwards @NZedAUS @BobLefridge @alpinefolk
I’m no expert in Israeli politics but I don’t think they really elected him. He formed a coalition of the minority parties to stay in control.
He’s a sneaky bastard.
@Jfrites @janisf @MiriShuli @spinbackwards @BobLefridge @alpinefolk exactly and to avoid corruption charges.
@Jfrites @MiriShuli @janisf @spinbackwards @BobLefridge @alpinefolk what Oct 7 did was to harden Israeli opinion - it evoked the Holocaust, it became an existential crisis for Jewry and the surge in global antisemitism has further contributed to "fortress Israel". It will take an Israeli leader with great courage and vision to open up Israeli society again to a durable agreement for Palestine.
@NZedAUS @Jfrites @MiriShuli @janisf @spinbackwards @BobLefridge @alpinefolk Please take this discussion into another thread not boosted by the group account.
@tchambers Howdy Tim,
Am I part of a group? If I am I did it by accident. Sorry about that.
Yes. But as Hashemi said, the leaders we need are nowhere in sight.
Gawd this is depressing.