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Juggling With Eggs

Another bad day for Braverman…

But reading this, I wonder 3 things:

1) Why can you get out of points and fines on your license by taking a course?

2) Who are these private firms offering bespoke courses to celebrities to get them off the hook for points on license? The law seems unequal.

3) Any research as to whether courses actually make better drivers?

theguardian.com/politics/2023/

The Guardian‘Inappropriate’ for Braverman to ask for one-to-one speed course, says motoring solicitorBy Jamie Grierson

I also suspect there is a division between the views of those who live/drive in London and those who live elsewhere in country.

Anecdotally I have heard a lot of people in London have been caught speeding 25 mph in 20 mph zones…including the Arch Bishop of Canterbury.

But ultimately I think if these speed limits were not enforced, we wouldn’t see the dramatic drops in emissions or make streets safer for children.

@JugglingWithEggs we have 20mph limits around us, including a few speed cameras. I’d say the majority of people still drive at 30 on these roads, there’s virtually no changes beyond changing the speed sign so I guess most people can’t see why they should slow down. Some additional signage would help?

@JugglingWithEggs I remember hearing some stuff about positive results from courses when they rolled them out nationally… they started off as an initiative/experiment by a couple of police forces, and apparently proved effective.

I've done them a couple of times and definitely learned stuff that was useful on both occasions.

@ThatIdiotMonro @JugglingWithEggs on both occasions, I was absolutely bang to rights… I'd lost track of what the speed limit was (thought it was a forty, was actually a thirty) and got caught by a camera. Three points would have made my insurance *substantially* more expensive; three hours on zoom refreshing my knowledge of that part of the Highway Code was a bargain by comparison.

@ThatIdiotMonro @JugglingWithEggs if you want to infer evidence about how effective the courses are: most insurance companies don't even want to know if you've been on a course, and attending one usually doesn't affect your insurance premiums. Meanwhile, there are policies where you're only covered if you have fewer than six points on your licence.

@pdcawley @ThatIdiotMonro it seems odd that insurance companies don’t want to know about the courses…years ago I worked in car insurance and they went out of their way to find out about various factors that they believed inferred you were a safer driver. If they are only counting points, then they are assuming the courses completely correct poor driving, which I find very hard to believe from an underwriter’s point of view.

Possible government directive?

@JugglingWithEggs @ThatIdiotMonro some insurers want to know, others don't. I assume they have actuarial tables that inform their decision.

And they don't completely correct poor driving, but if you *don't* learn from them, then the odds are very good you'll pick up another three points as you blithely assume that wide single carriageway road with street lights is a 40 limit because you feel safe driving at that speed.

It's an intervention that might be effective and is effective often enough.

@pdcawley but if you’ve done the course more than once, was it really that effective?

I’m not totally against the concept, as the points and fining system assumes you:

a) respond to shaming
b) can be financially incentivised not to do it again.

These approaches don’t work with everyone, possibly including some politicians and celebs.

But I want the content of the courses standardised, the price fixed and an exam at the end.

@JugglingWithEggs

5 years apart. Second iteration was a better version; less about trying to shame you and more about covering the kind of slips and knowledge gaps that lead to people breaking the speed limit without realising it.

The courses only get offered to a particular class of offenders – If you're blasting through a 30 limit at 60, you're getting points (or an immediate ban). Pretty much everyone on the courses I attended had only realised they were speeding when the camera flashed.

@JugglingWithEggs And the impression I got was that the content *is* standardised.

I'm not going to talk more about the content (I think I might already be theoretically in trouble for talking about the courses I've attended), but I *strongly* disagree with you about the exam idea. Exams are generally a terrible idea in any teaching context.

@pdcawley apologies, I don’t want to make you say anything you are uncomfortable about saying. I really welcome your honesty.

I just got the impression from another reply to my initial post that the content varied from provider to provider and what area of the country you were in. I think standardisation seems logical - but I fear it’s because the courses are run by private profit making providers rather than the say, the DVLA that they vary in terms of what is taught.

@JugglingWithEggs I can only go by the impressions I got from the instructors on the courses I took and they seemed genuinely uncynical about what they were doing.

On the other hand, I was very cynical about the effectiveness or usefulness of the course the first time I went on one. I thought it was just going to be three hours of my life I had to write off to avoid a ban and that's *not* what it was like. And the second course was a distinct improvement. You can't attend the course twice…

@JugglingWithEggs within a three year period, so they need to update the curriculum at least every three years to avoid having attendees who've heard it all before. The first course was very patronising and about half of it was actually useful.

Second time around, they'd clearly had feedback about the tone of the first half, and had reworked that section to make it *much* more impactful.

@pdcawley so ultimately do you think Braverman may still be a speedy driver as she took the fine and points in the end?

Should the rich and famous be able to access one to one bespoke courses?

And should this be career ending for her?

@JugglingWithEggs I'm entirely uncomfortable with the fact that she still *has* a career after the last time she breached the ministerial code.

I mean… it'd be mortifying enough if I ended up on the same course as someone I knew personally. If another attendee turned out to be (not wishing to imply anything about him) Ed Sheeran, then yeah, I'd probably find that distracting and it would most likely get in the way, so I (reluctantly) take the celebrity lawyer's point. It's not remotely ideal…

@JugglingWithEggs but the courses only exist because a few chief constables took a pragmatic view and tried something that (presumably) proved to be effective enough. If Joe Celeb engages honestly with the course, it has every chance of being effective for them in a 1 to 1 situation, if they're just paying to avoid the three points and zoning out for the three hours, then they're gonna get caught again sharpish.

Career ending for Braverman? I'd not weep for if it was, but it's a shoddy way to…

@JugglingWithEggs get rid of her.

I doubt the course would do her much good anyway, she seems to be incapable of learning or taking advice.

@pdcawley I agree, previous breaches of the ministerial code should have been enough to call time.

But I guess what your driving at is perhaps we do have to take a utilitarian approach to this issue and think ultimately what makes for the safest and happiest society? And that might be one to one speed awareness courses for celebs.

@JugglingWithEggs can we avoid the U-word please? Utilitarians can fuck all the way off into the sun.

Certain types of speeding are, essentially, a public health issue, and the courses are an intervention that seems to be more effective enough for a certain class of offender than just doling out another three points and a fine. If a celeb gets a different (and I'd suggest less effective) version of the intervention then that's a shame, but ultimately that just means they're more likely to be…

@JugglingWithEggs someone the intervention didn't help.

But there are always going to be people it doesn't help. Three points wouldn't help 'em either.

@pdcawley I’m equally not normally a fan of the U word, it just struck me that there is more of a case than I first thought for saying the unpalatable thing of letting celebs be able to opt into one to one courses.

Ultimately, I want safer, quieter roads, so if speed awareness courses really work for most people, then all should take them at specific intervals regardless of their age, motoring record or celebrity status.

@JugglingWithEggs fuck that. The beauty of the system as it stands is it catches people when they are *motivated* to learn what the course have to offer. You arrive expecting three hours of detention, and it's better and more interesting than that and you come away with actionable knowledge that will help you not do that again…

@JugglingWithEggs

If it's mandatory, that doesn't happen. You waste the time of a lot of people who were never going to speed anyway, and your courses are also disrupted by the kind of tosspots who would never have been offered the course in the first place. And it costs a *fortune*.

Just because some people have diabetes, you don't prescribe insulin for everyone.

@pdcawley I still think there is an issue that we give someone a driving license aged 17 and they can then keep driving until their 80’s/90’s (assuming their GP doesn’t intervene).

Even ‘good drivers’ forget details of the Highway Code and are perhaps completely unaware of changes to it, but more importantly get into bad habits.

Would it be so terrible to get people to do a refresher every 20 years? It’s been over 25 years since I passed my test and I think I would benefit.

@JugglingWithEggs I mean… if you can get the funding to run the trials, go for it. But it's a huge and expensive intervention to make with no relevant evidence.

@JugglingWithEggs @pdcawley not just the rich and famous. Anyone can request for a raft of reasons.

@JugglingWithEggs
I had this a few years ago, went over the limit on a motorway works area. Speeding ticket 100£ Offer to take a course for £80. I took the course - money was going to charity after expenses, and I had no points taken.
I cycled to the course location 😉

@onecreativecat the notion that the course fee was going to charity after expenses does put a different perspective on it again…I had perhaps wrongly assumed this was a private sector money making opportunity rather than something organised on a charitable basis. Thanks for your comment and honesty!