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stux⚡

The results are in around the / poll I put out a week ago and over 8.2K people have voted, thank you all❤️

The recent App Store screenshots from the 'App Privacy' from Meta's new app Threads have concerned me and with the current status the question remains if it's even allowed within Europe

The chance that they will ever federate with us remains the question but with their current platform as-is we are gonna block them until many things improved

Poll:
mstdn.social/@stux/11062258373

Keep in mind that the privacy settings from the Threads app you see on the screenshot only applies on THEIR platform

But I cannot be fully sure to what extend their data collection goes as far as search results for example

Until we have a better picture of how their new platform is gonna run in somewhat more details we can make a better decision

When / IF will release within Europe we will take another look and make a decision but until that happens we will keep the block

Since we are hosted in Europe I'm not sure it would be clever to federate with a platform that is not allowed in the EU

This is not about me trying to take away the choice for a user-level instance block but rather a more legal reason

Again, IF Meta/Threads where to federate with us their posts, users and media would end up on our servers(as a copy). And since we know they are not allowed within Europe yet I am not willing to take that risk and host their content! ⚠️

When the moment comes and they do release in Europe we will lift the block and let you decide for yourself!

This is about protecting the instance

@stux thanks for all your hard work researching this. And thank you for looking out for us.

@stux Woman reading #Threads privacy policy...

@stux Actually, it is kinda the other way around. I'm not sure it would be clever for Meta to be federating with EU platforms. You can harm it more than they can harm you if you play it right. ;)

@trinsec Haha yup! But i dont wanna take the risk

@stux I appreciate your pragmatic view of things. I don't know all the Admin options regarding federation, but if Threads is allowed to launch in the EU is there a way where only users who want to interact with Threads can be allowed to? Kind of like how unlisted/followers only posts but with federation?

@codybrom @stux yes but it's impractical: your instance should have to unblock them and every user on your side should have to decide immediately if going back to block individually or to let it open.
Because one of the main concerns is mass data harvesting, even a short period of connection would be enough to give Meta complete access to a 'screenshot' of the instance accounts, whether they want to be connected or not.

@stux Is mstdn.social allowed in EU? Where can I validate this?

@stux I have stopped monthly subscription
(mstdn.social/@Alex0007/1106543)

It lasted one day lol, until you have decided for us that we don't want to federate.

This is sad, i really liked this instance, now i need to think about migration.

As Russian war emigrant i really hate those walls people are building because of their fears

@Alex0007 I get that :cat_hug_triangle:

But it's not fear but logics

I am personally responsible for all content on my servers (also federated that you can see) and until they are allowed here we dont take the risk

@stux Then treat their content as usual, while it is not breaking rules/laws.

Delay with EU launch obviously not related with content, but GDPR, i think. Which is not related to mstdn instance at all

@Alex0007@mstdn.social @stux@mstdn.social i think it's also about how they would handle your data. Like i would not want my data being on a platform that doesn't even want to operate in my country because they KNOW they would get their asses clapped to hell and back if they try. I already defederated myself from them instance wide. That will stay that way. They did the same with Quest 2 and i never bought it. Refused to sell it in Germany specifically cause what they did with forced Facebook migration would get them in trouble. It did anyways since they also eventually forced it on everyone with older headsets like Quest 1.

Result was tons of shitty stuff happening from people getting their Facebook accounts banned immediately after migrating oculus to Facebook and losing all purchases and not being able to use the headset anymore. Also obviously the fact of connecting a VR Headset suddenly with a social media platform.

Few years later they did migration again from Facebook to a meta account which finally made them able to sell their headsets in my country.

Company just shady as hell. Shame they're the ones doing these headsets. Same now happening with threads

@Alex0007 @stux

There is no giving Meta the benefit of the doubt. They aren't going to suddenly tell you they're selling your health info or bio data to insurance companies, etc.

You are not personally responsible. Just the same as internet backbones are not personally responsible for data flowing over their cables.

If Meta is not allowed to post their data in the EU, it is not you, nor anyone’s else responsibility but that of Meta to make sure it doesn’t happen.

It is not like they can try to post it everywhere in Europe and it is the responsibility of each individual host to block it.

If Meta is not allowed to post content in the EU, they are not allowed to federate with systems that show their content in the EU. If their data still shows up in the EU, it is their responsibility, not yours.

@stux Silly question maybe, but what domain(s) are you actually blocking? The above sounds like a block is already in place, but I don't think it is know how Meta is going into the Fediverse, or is it?

@stux Thank you for the clarification. So, if they can get their s#it together and pass EU regulations, you will revisit the decision. I don’t want to move, I guess it’s a wait and see for awhile.

@stux Well, I'm not sure that's the best decision so early. I'd rather wait a bit. But I won't complain, it's your instance, you're free to make the rules and I haven't even donated any money to you yet. But could be I'll be switching, depending on who's going to be on threads. If it gets used by more professionals actively I'd like to be able to interact with them.

@stux Thank you for the clarity Stux. I really appreciate how much you do for this community.

@stux Hate to break it to you, but that issue applies to all federation, not just meta. There are countless servers that exist exclusively in the USA..

That said I support whatever decision you make re: blocking meta... as long as your transparent to your users they can pick whatever server they want.. if they want to talk to their friends and family they will just move servers, no biggie.

That said I think the legal reason doesnt add up, its more ideological, but thats ok!

@freemo Haha yeah indeed thats why the blocks :blobcatgiggle:

I will keep an open mind ofc, but i really really need at least the min EU req from them :blobcathearts:

@stux

Well I dont think anyone will be shocked if Threads winds up completely abusing privacy rights.... so yea...

@freemo @stux Came here to say something similar: the risk is actually bigger the other way around.

With how federation works, Stux is legally the responsible processor *exporting* data under #gdpr and needs to make an assessment if that’s ok.

With regular instances data usage is known and can likely be considered safe and within legal limits. With threads (especially given Meta themselves concluded it’s illegal in EU for now) that’s not something I’d lightly assume.

@freemo @stux I'm wondering the same exact thing. My instance is US based in a AWS US region. I've honestly not thought about the new EU data protection law or GDPR factors into federation....🤔

@stux yeah, this actually raises big questions about federarion legal practicalities.

@stux Thank you, this explanation makes a lot of sense. I’m not even on your server but appreciate understanding the legal complexities. 👍

@stux You sure about that? Their content is allowed there, it's just that their data scraping isn't allowed here and their app is full of data scraping.

@trinsec Federated stuff will also be saved on our servers and media will be stored

Im not sure about the legal stance on that but I don't wanna take the risk as long as they cannot even make the EU rules 😉

That is my minimal requirement of them

@stux Federated stuff saved on your servers is not problematic at all (unless it breaks your local laws like kiddie porn and other awful stuff).

At worst maybe you break some American rule about data storage, but eh. We're likely way past that point anyway.

You're free to block Meta of course, but your reasoning sounds a bit flawed to me which is actually helluva confusing.

Meta is too lazy to make their app GDPR-compliant, which is why that isn't allowed. But them federating should be a seperate thing.

@stux

I'm very thankful for the block.

Your last two toots seem to contradict eachother, that's a bit confusing?

@Grutjes Im unsure on that subject :ablobwink:

It would be logical there could be consequences if things where to happen as-is but i cannot say for sure

@stux

Please don't promise people to lift the block then, so you're not cornered and you can discuss and think things over by then.

(...Also: It seems a bit futile to block them only when they are not allowed to join by law...)

I do admire your calm openess in the discussion by the way. ❤️

@stux you made me thing in something: If a user in a server that federated with others, demands to be "forgotten", the posts should be deleted in all the federation, but it seems is NOT the case.

That, even without Meta, can be an issue, because that is a way to host content that should not be hosted anymore.

I see some issues open on github for this.

@stux 100% understand this. Meta has a history of questionable practices.

After seeing things like the revenue Facebook lost after Apple decided to make iOS more secure, Meta needs to be either blocked out or on a short leash.

For the sake of security alone this is definitely something that should be done from the start.

@16BitYeti @stux

This moment above in a screenshot or two or three, below. Largest drop for a company in history (so they said) on 02/02/2022.

\(°o°)/

@stux Thank you Stux for being open about this issue.

@stux stux, mainly what I want to know is if meta or threads "join" this place, will they have access to my posts even if I do not follow or interact with anyone from there?

@ElleGray They will not :ablobwink:

And if the times comes when and if the instance level blocks gets removed i will announce this so everyone can block them on user-level whoever that wants so the posts will still not be available

@stux ok, thank you. That was really my only concern on a personal level. 🙂

@ElleGray do be aware though that you’re posting publicly so that information is already inherently available out there to whoever wants to browse or scrape it. A block of threads will prevent interaction but the data is still hypothetically available to them and anyone else.

@stux I think it would be better to leave it to a poll for the mstdn.social users.

@stux I agree with your assessment and decision, but it leads me to wonder if a similar problem may arise with other servers that have been around on the Fediverse? I mean, is it just Meta that poses this risk?

@stux

Hi!

I assume you will apply the same strategy for all of your other instances like masto.ai?!

@stux i'm just curious, do you know what the legal implications could be to federate if the EU does not give consent?

law nerd here and not in the EU so why i ask. personally think your approach seems reasonable to me.

@stux I appreciate the preemptive block, really, and I thank you very much.
I think fedi will be a shitstorm, and later I am sure this will turn out to be a good decision.
If it ever arrives in EU, we will have time to consider how the fediverse is gonna fare, and I hope the block will stay on forever, no matter what.
I really don't want to move, and I really want nothing to do with the likes of meta, not now, nor ever.
For what it's worth said from me, but thanks for listening.

@stux I feel like the responsibility of keeping there data out of Europe would fall onto them (Meta) and not the instances in Europe. That would be like me standing at the US boarder and listening to a radio station from Canada that's not supposed to broadcast into the US. Just because I can hear their broadcast doesn't mean I'm willing or knowingly participating in their crime.

I'm simply tuning into a station and it's picking up an illegal broadcast. My opinion would be that they (Meta) should be fined for every instance in Europe that their data gets spread to. They could easily apply IP blocks and things to keep there data under control.

@stux

"And since we know they are not allowed within Europe"

I had not thought about this and if it really is an issue then it could be trouble for admins with an instance located in any country with content restrictions.