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Antivax, How are they funded? Investigating ad trackers with Gephi and the DMI Tracker Tracker tool - First Draft: firstdraftnews.org/long-form-a

@rmdes I’m sure there is no political bias or larger agenda involved in this project. 🤦‍♂️

@steve @rmdes could you be more explicit about what you have in mind and provide sources so that it's not left to the reader's imagination?
Hinting at issues without evidence nor explicit statements is not always a great way to move things forward ;)

@silmathoron @rmdes Funny that so many of the people pushing these narratives aren’t able to use that same logic.

@steve @rmdes let me make things explicit: I don't see what you mean so I'm wondering whether you're trolling and wasting my time or if there are issues I should be aware of regarding this person or Politico.
And as I see everything as political (we all have a ideal world in mind that we would want to see implemented), I don't see what's wrong about people having political agendas: e.g. I think more vaccined people mean healthier populations, and I want as many healthy people as possible, so...

@silmathoron @rmdes I disagree. I think propagandizing an untested big pharma RNA vaccine is irresponsible and people should not be shamed into taking it if they dont want to.

You can take it you want, but painting all contrarian medical research (which is substantial) against certain vaccines with such a broad stroke is equally as dangerous as any disinformation (and is arguably the real disinformation in many cases historically when it comes to these companies).

The same companies that have killed hundreds of millions of people over the years - that the academic left use to stand against, are now willing shills in their propaganda campaigns.

It’s just silly to anyone who is well read, been alive longer than 35 years and actually researches this stuff.

@steve @rmdes Funny you should say that: I work close to biological research, where mRNA has been used successfuly (and daily) for decades.
Furthermore, having read e.g. "mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology" and "Three decades of messenger RNA vaccine development", both papers published *before* COVID 19, it hardly looks like something out of the blue, or generally reproved by the medical community that works on it.
But since I'm not 35 yet, maybe that's why I don't see why it's silly ;)

@silmathoron @rmdes One thing you realize when you get old enough is that you didn’t really know anything about the world and how it really works when you are a 20-30 something.

You think you do.

You think you know everything at that age. I know I did.

So let’s break this down… you know better than other people who in many cases are far more credentialed than you will ever be… because… a paper paid for by Big Pharma (and /or their affiliates) said so.

Gotcha.

Revisit this conversation in 2024-2025 time period. I don’t think you will have the same opinion, although I am sure you and people with your current opinion will have plenty of excuses.

@steve @rmdes OK, let's break this down: you're only "argument" is based on some kind of personal experience about yourself.

There are only five possibilities regarding the mRNA vaccines:
1. they are ineffective against COVID and they are detrimental to human health
2. they are ineffective but harmless to humans
3. they are effective but more detrimental to health (harm more than save)
4. they are more effective than detrimental (will save more than harm)
5. they are effective and harmless

1/?

@steve @rmdes There is therefore a reasonable probability that one of us is causing harm to other people.
As you said, I hope we both remember that when more data comes in.
I certainly will!

In the meantime, we can look at the behavior of those who should know better (those working on COVID or in internal medicine).
Guess what they think?
assets.researchsquare.com/file (Figure 3)

But of course, since you think it's all a conspiracy...

@silmathoron @rmdes I’ve just watched these companies operate for the last 40+ years and probably know a lot more history and corruption than you do or are aware of.

Big Pharma has killed my mother with multiple prescriptions that ended up having tons of side effects that has lead to a serious decline in her health. I may lose her this year.

There use to be a time when contrarian opinions and research were a part of “the free market of ideas”. Now anything that goes against the establishment narrative is a “conspiracy”.

Nothing you said proves anything. In the end, all you have is an opinion based on a bunch of paid research from big pharma grant money.

Period.

@steve @rmdes well, I am certainly not going to convince you.
However, sorry to be blunt but:
a) that corruption exists in Big Pharma (which is certainly true) has a priori (unless you can show it) nothing to do with medical research in general and COVID 19 vaccines in particular
b) your personal history (including the sad development about your mother) is also not relevant here
c) I provided some evidence, you have done nothing to do the same, nor to prove that what I provided was flawed

@silmathoron @rmdes So let me get this straight… you are asking me to prove that there is corruption and predatory capitalism within Big Pharma?! 😂

You’re being intellectually dishonest if that is your premise.

You should research things outside of your bubble. There is a whole world out there waiting to be discovered.

@steve @rmdes it would be nice if you stopped taking the other person for an idiot: it does not make your point any better and it gets obnoxious rather quickly...

I am telling you that not all medical research is paid by Big Pharma (until proven otherwise, most research from independent university labs should indeed be considered valid), so either you can show that the research I pointed to has relation with Big Pharma or you provided no argument at all and I can just dismiss all you said.

@silmathoron @rmdes I’m not, I’m just a cynical old bastard. If I have come off like I am berating you, that is not my intention. I agree there is great independently funded research - and that not all funded research is inherently evil.

It’s more about timing, the players, prior history, all the circumstances at play, etc… that lead up to all this. As you genuinely and objectively put those pieces together (and yes, even looking at information you may not like or agree with), you really would have to be pretty dumb (or complicit) to not see some areas of concern.

Like I said, revisit this in 4-5 years and you may have a different opinion. Unless your career depends on a certain narrative within all that. Then cognitive dissonance / bias comes into play and you will defend it, because it is your livelihood.

So many people I know who are specialists and really knowledgable about one thing really are some of the most inept and information poor people in many other areas - but Dunning Kruger and all. Because they are smart in X, that should cary over to Y.

Not the case.

@steve @rmdes I appreciate the change of tone, however:

> As you genuinely and objectively put those pieces together [...] you really would have to be pretty dumb (or complicit) to not see some areas of concern.

Again, these are just vague words and you do not provide any evidence.

From my side, given the context, it is on the countrary not surprising at all (and even reassuring) that mRNA vaccines would be proposed.
They are especially suited against diseases like COVID and its mutations.

@steve @rmdes and I am entirely against Big Pharma in general, I would be in favor of the lift of IP on vaccines and for decentralized pharmaceutical productions.
That does not mean that I see any reason not to buy current mRNA vaccines from current companies for lack of a better alternative.

@silmathoron @rmdes And that is a key point that has rubbed me the wrong way for decades. The entire system is set up for profit now more than outcomes.

@steve @rmdes sorry, I did not get that first sentence, can you elaborate?

@silmathoron @rmdes

I would be in favor of the lift of IP on vaccines and for decentralized pharmaceutical productions

I was specifically responding to this bit.

@steve can you be more explicit? I'm not sure what you want to say here.. Even with your selection, your argument could be witch hunting against journalists without the slickest proof of anything to backup your claim.
Do we need an agenda to expose antivax patterns on the web and how they profit from their activism? What is their agenda?

@rmdes Or this is an attempt to disrupt their income so they can no longer support their research, which would seem more beneficial to the Big Pharma companies pushing this - so those inconvenient contrarian voices can be silenced.

As if some independent researchers who are often depersoned & deplatformed at every turn for speaking out, losing their careers, reputation, etc… did it all just to make a quick buck on Adsense. 🤦‍♂️

I am not saying there aren’t some affiliate spammers and bad actors in the mix in that space - there is in almost every niche and industry in existence, but the argument you just presented has absolutely no merit.

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