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Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
re: Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Lemmy is software. It’s like Mastodon. There’s nothing inherent to Lemmy that is by any means political.
I don't think tech is neutral.
I am not comfortable about tech created by people who have a bad attitude towards human rights.
Tech in general isn’t neutral, but there’s nothing within the source code of Lemmy that endorses denying genocides.
Like, I use Soapbox, but I’m not a TERF
-__-
Well, you kinda have an account here lol
Also: if you deny trans rights, you’ll get yeeted off this platform.
What news? Also please take into consideration my other reply: https://social.uden.ai/@Erik/posts/AWW09NTpVRZwRfdAK8
bigotry discussion
Well, I am switching to Mastodon soon for this very problem. I have a few money issues right now, so setting up the server and migrating won’t come quick, but I am hoping on having it set up by September the latest!
You’re right, endorsing this software isn’t the way to go (though I do believe a fork could do wonders)
bigotry discussion
@Ember @feditips @Erik hello, I’m sorry but I don’t understand the hate, would it be ok for you to explain it please ?
The fork has been made by people who care deeply about LGBTQIA+ questions and about creating a space as safe as possible. They are always thriving to improve themselves and they said themselves that the fork is made to oppose what soapbox has become. What would be the correct answer here ? Edit : to add, I think a fork means it is not the same software anymore. It has been renamed and they are also currently working in rewriting everything. Is it not enough ?
Alex Gleason is also cited as one of the lead developers in Mastodon’s first release, so…
As far as I know, he has zero connection to Mastodon today and no role there. It was Eugen who founded it and Eugen who runs it today.
I think Gleason was more on Pleroma anyway?
I’ve just come back from a long shower in which I thought about your comments, and I think you’re right, hence I will be moving to Mastodon (#MastodonDE) soon (just called a friend, we’ll setup a server in Frankfurt or sth)
Just to legitimize my beliefs to some degree, here’s why I thought what I thought:
Sure, I use Soapbox and Rebased, but I’ve never given a penny to Gleason. As a matter of fact, I am very open about my opinion on him and tell everyone who asks about the software my instance uses or shows interest in Gleason’s software why I think they should rethink their actions. I do that on here as well as a moderator on r/Fediverse.
My instance is promoted on his website, so whenever someone who is a TERF or something along those lines (libertarian, alt-right, etc.) wants to join a Soapbox instance, they might just join mine and get introduced to an alternative viewpoint (an ultra-woke radical leftist perspective in which trans rights are, obviously, human rights).
My idea behind it was something like “just because there was one Nazi punk, punks didn’t stop identifying themselves as punks”, so instead of leaving something that is now problematic because it was annexed by the far right, you ensure that it won’t become another symbol for them. If they want to use climate change as a means to push for ecofascism, you don’t let them, if they annex Christianity to push christofascism, you don’t let them. If they develop software to promote “free speech”, you don’t let them. If more leftists and trans rights activists used Soapbox than any other group, the problem would shift to the side of Gleason: continue developing a software that now mostly pushes for something that is against his ideals, or stop entirely. I liked that idea more than moving away from a sinking ship and letting Soapbox develop into a larger and more radical bubble to the extend where instances using it become Auto-defederated.
However, I am not sure how realistic that was. Considering I needed a lot of help with bugs and stuff from Gleason, I also wasted lots of his time for which he didn’t get paid - another example of why possibly using software from problematic devs is a good thing rather than a bad thing. Yet getting more leftists to open Soapbox instances is probably harder than I thought.
Yet I cannot measure the amount of people that saw my instance and software, decided to give Soapbox a try, and possibly donated money to Gleason due to me, it’s probably zero people, but I can’t tell, and as long as the software my instance uses links to a GitLab under his name, your point stands and continues to stand indefinitely.
The argument that Lemmy’s frontpage displays lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml is valid, but it also displays ~70 instances that have no genocide denying opinions whatsoever, so the Lemmy mods are left having to develop software for people who do not support their ideology or opinions whatsoever.
But, you’re right: if there are alternatives, promote those, if there aren’t, make a fork. You shouldn’t support something with the name, logo, and link to where to donate by people who have problematic views to this degree.
Software, media, and especially social media software are tools, it’s our task as admins to ensure we maintain control over our platforms and do not inadvertently support increasingly problematic people or viewpoints by using their software. Even if the software itself seems to have none of the admin’s viewpoints hard-coded now, a future update can change that, and then you’re left to decide whether you want to go through the effort and migrate to another software, or accept the problematic updates and give people whom you do not support more control.
To remain independent of problematic admins means not to support or use their software.
TL;DR: I think you’re right, I will switch to Mastodon under mastodon.de ( #MastodonDE) soon, because Soapbox and Rebased are problematic due to the developer’s anti-trans viewpoints.
@Erik @feditips if you really like soapbox, here is a fork made by wonderfull people : https://github.com/BDX-town/Mangane you can use it ove Mastodon I think and keep the interface you like !
Oh, wow! I simply didn’t know about Mangane FEs existence.
https://github.com/BDX-town/Mangane
I would love for my new server mastodon.de to offer it as an alternative Frontend! Thank you very much for sharing this.
Thank you for that.
I know we don't agree on everything, but it's really nice to see you taking the time to lay out your thoughts carefully!
@feditips @Erik Hello from a month in the future!
Not sure if you've been following this thread and its conclusion but after thinking about what you wrote and what my change in beliefs truly should mean as consequences, I've put together a diverse mod & dev team and spent probably every day since our conversation planning what infrastructure such a server would take, transporting hardware across Germany, mounting racks, drilling holes for networking cables, and opening a new Mastodon Server on https://mastodon.de/
I've had the help of many Fedizens as well as data centers across the country that donated old hardware for this to become a reality (especially the DENIC eG). I guess if there's a will there's a way, although a month ago I wouldn't have believed myself if I made that statement.
Thank you for your help with this- you may not have moved mountains or carried a server rack for 650km from Frankfurt to Norden in one day using only regional trains, but you've convinced me and gave me the motivation and wake-up-call necessary to realize that I needed to change. Such words alone can change the course of history - let's hope for the better!
I cannot thank you enough, the past few weeks have been wonderful, and I'm happy to have kickstarted such a lovely new project, with newfound good friends, without the bad sour aftertaste of supporting a developer with horrid views.
Keep doing what you're doing! #MastodonDE will always be in your debt!
Yours sincerely,
Erik Uden
Always has been!
Also, it’s open source. You’re not paying the people who made Lemmy. It’s a link aggregator, like Reddit. You can defederate instances where moderators allow things like denying genocide.
There are 74 Lemmy servers. I know many that aren’t like Lemmygrad. There are also many Mastodon instances that spread the same things you’ve talked about. That doesn’t mean I begin telling people to not use Mastodon.
@Erik I usually agree with @feditips on this stuff, but Lemmy is a FOSS project which anyone can fork and modify. What would be the distinction between forking Lemmy and rebranding it Kropotkin? It would still be the same software. Tech concepts are political, but software inherits its politics from the intent of the software.
@feditips @Erik
I sympathise, but I also think separating politics from the software to some extent is important for the fediverse at large. If core devs are problematic, then fork or put up new independent instances. There’s gotta be a bit more teamwork if there’s going to be a good ecosystem of software
Absolutely with you! Kbin looks very beautiful as well.
Never liked the design of Lemmy anyway.
@Erik @maegul @feditips Just wanted to point out there are other kbin instance of course as well.. Not ONLY kbin.social. Mine is: https://kbin.melroy.org. Full list (ordered by nr. of users? maybe not the best indicator): https://kbin.fediverse.observer/list
@feditips @Erik yea kbin is definitely nice. Fusing microblogging with link-aggregating/Reddit-like formats is the way forward for the fediverse IMO: new creative platform formats.
To my point above though, kbin, being essentially similar to lemmy, interops well with lemmy and is currently developing symbiotically with existing lemmy communities, with both dev teams, AFAICT, believing in the health of a diverse fediverse, especially against a dominant mastodon.
@feditips @Erik additionally to this, it might be worth considering what values are shared. While you may be accurate, and I might have myself seen a red flag or two about excessive support for Russia/China, I’ve certainly been happy hanging on lemmy and with the views of many there. I’d also question, if we’re going to get real for a second, the values of mastodon as a platform and whether anyone should join it. Point being, I’m inclined to think big picture stuff might win out on this one.
It's not about support for one country or another, or one political viewpoint or another.Trying to present it as such is missing the point and giving it a misleading political cover story that it doesn't deserve.
The red flag is the consistent denial of well-documented human rights abuses. That kind of denial is never acceptable from anyone under any circumstances.
If human rights are abused, and those abuses are well documented, people must not deny the abuses took place.
@feditips @Erik
I hear you. I would imagine lemmy core devs, being marxists or communism sympathisers, would see many critiques of communist states as most likely western/capitalist propaganda, and therefore intrinsically political, however rightly or wrongly that is. I’m open minded and ignorant on the details enough to hear that line of thought out.
I’m curious now, any chance you’d be willing to share those receipts?
The devs ≠ Lemmy
You can say as much about human rights abuses as you want, but using the software, especially when it comes to FOSS, doesn’t support the devs in any way.
I can use Lemmy to spread whatever information I want, right or wrong.
There’s no ideological war happening through the usage alone.
The better solution in my opinion is using the software for purposes the devs would dislike (in this case spreading correct information about human rights abuses) and hence reclaiming the software.
