Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference.

I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too.

However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely.

I am very suspicious about their motivations now.

1/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

Lemmy's developers say "we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression" and "We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that".

This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers' own instance, and those they feature.

2/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

The problem here isn't Lemmy's politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations.

On the face of it, the developers' main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges.

The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial.

3/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

There's threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: amnesty.org.uk/actions/help-en).

Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive.

Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin's birthday as he was such a great guy.

(Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.)

4/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

You get the picture.

These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website.

Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding.

However, Lemmy said that "none of the posts you linked are against our rules", and refused to even discuss the actual issues because "this format is not conducive to political disagreements".

5/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I'm really sorry.

Don't use Lemmy.

For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead.

I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something

6/6

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here:

amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17

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Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).

Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their "join lemmy" site.

Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

p.p.p.s. There was an older "reddit for the Fediverse" project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point.

Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy?

gitlab.com/prismosuite/prismo

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips Ah makes sense.. Lemmygrad is a nasty platform indeed, this makes the picture complete

@stux @feditips I hate Lemmygrad and I hate when I see a Lemmygrad post

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips Wow, looks like tankie central.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@aral @feditips
I mean the developers of lemmy never tried to hide the fact that they are tankies.
You could ask them: Hey are you a Marxist-Leninist, and they proudly would answer yes. It's just that most don't really understand what that means or just don't care.

@feditips I get it, but isn't freedom one of the main points of federation?
I mean, saying some genocides didn't happen is wrong and stupid, but if you want to say it, why not? It's up to you.
Censoring everything that goes agains the owner's point of view is exactly what Facebook does and what we don't like.
What I'm saying is that the devs don't necessarily agree with the denial posts.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips This whole thing seems like cancel culture: reject (cancel) a whole software project because of the main devs' actions. I agree, not censoring posts harmful to human rights is bad, and even worse to deny you're acting against your own terms by doing so; but no, I don't think Lemmy, the software project, deserves to be cancelled.

I mean, the whole point of free software is not being locked-in by the developers.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips People here advocate for free software and the freedoms it provides to us. If devs insert features we disagree or act in ways that we consider harmful, we can always fork the project and modify it as we wish.

Most people here also advocate for federation because everyone is free to host an instance with their own terms; but completely ignore all of this when they want to cancel something.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips If this is the way you will act, then it makes no sense for software to be free and for social platforms to be federated. You will just cancel them the same as proprietary walled gardens.

Don't be oversensitive. The community came up with this awesome way to make software independent of individual opinion, so you can freely make use of the software without having to worry about devs' opinion.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips If you worry about people finding the Lemmy flagship instance when you recommend them Lemmy, then fucking fork it and change its name! If you worry about the instances on joinlemmy.org, then fucking create your own instance list and direct people to it. There are way, way better solutions than cancelling the whole project and the people related to it in any way.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@avalos

No one is "cancelling" anyone. Lemmy are free to continue behaving how they want.

But if they do bad things, other people are allowed to say they are doing bad things.

Federation doesn't mean consequence-free behaviour, it's quite the opposite. Federation means people are much freer to go elsewhere if they disagree with a platform dev's behaviour.

I'm recommending people who currently use Lemmy go elsewhere. That's all.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips Yes, and I agree with saying they are doing bad things. You are cancelling the project by telling people not to use it. You are free to use a different software, but telling people not to use whatsoever is idiotic.

Exactly, federation means people are free to go elsewhere, such as to a different Lemmy instance or fork. You are validating my points by saying that.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@avalos @feditips where's the line between taking stuff seriously and being oversensitive?

to me, each one of the examples crosses the line. Uyghur genocide, Stalin (actualky person cult in general but this guy!?), North Korea

Where's the line to you?

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@ruffni @feditips There is no line when it comes to free software. It doesn't matter how much they talk about anything as long as you can create your own instance and enforce your own terms of service, that include banning such kinds of content.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@avalos @feditips
>. If devs insert features we disagree or act in ways that we consider harmful, we can always fork the project and modify it as we wish.

The other option is to just use something else. There is not need to contribute by modifications of lemmy back to lemmy. There are other software projects that you simply can use.

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@avalos @feditips sounds good to me. cancel the shit out of this.

re: Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips Can someone connect the dots for me and explain how using Lemmy to, say, discuss Atari 8-bit games harms someone else’s human rights or causes them to be more oppressed?

Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression 

@feditips
You might have done an "ad hominem" argument. That's a fallacy, a "rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person..." rather than Lemmy itself en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hom You say devs are not to trust. Ok, but warn us when the free software we are talking about is harmful.

This is defending free software seedy.xyz/posts/0005-open-lett Something like that'd be better next time, please.

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